Ontario Bagwell Bowie

Cousin Jack

Cousin Jack

Joined
Oct 25, 2002
Messages
709
I am new to this forum, and I am looking for some input (good or bad)on a knife that I am considering on purchasing.

The knife in question is the Ontario Bagwell Bowie, Hells Belle to be exact.

Is this knife worth the $220 they are asking, or not?

I have tried to perform a search on this subject, but I am unable to access that option for some reason, so, I will throw the question out there for all of you.

thanx
 
They are awesome bowies! I used to have one, but had to return it due to a guard problem, but will be buying one again in the near future (and probably get the Southern Comfort sheath from River City Sheaths). It is long, pointy and sharp - but most of all, it has the "alive" feel - being a production version of Bill Bagwell customs it has that touch of genius. I haven't handled the Cold Steel Laredo bowie, but that is even more expensive!

If you like big steel - then this is a "must have" - my new acid test of knives is: if I lost it, would I buy it again... and the Ontario Bagwell Bowie is in that category.

I think the new blade finish is satin... used to be mirror polish.

A lot of people question the steel - it is "only" a stainless (probably 440A) - but it's not a camp knife - it is a fighter!!
 
Originally posted by Daniel L
They are awesome bowies! I used to have one, but had to return it due to a guard problem, but will be buying one again in the near future (and probably get the Southern Comfort sheath from River City Sheaths).
Click to expand...

The Ontario/Bagwell is one of the better production Bowie's ever offered. I believe that Mike at RiverCity is offering from his shop your choice of Ontario/Bagwell with a custom fitted SouthernComfort sheath.
Stay Safe,
Clyde
 
I've had a Hell's Belle and a Gambler. As noted by others they are fighters. Very lively for their length.

I've only found two problems (same on both the knives I had). The coffin shaped wood handles are beautiful but not very practical for me. They are a bit big in the butt for my hand and too slippery. The other problem was while the sharpened clip point came very sharp it was a wire edge on both that easily rolled over. That of course is easily fixed with a round ceramic stone.

If you're after a "user" knife rather than a wall hanger, Ontario used to offer factory seconds at a very reasonable price. You'll have to call them for availability, they never advertise them.

Good luck! Another good source of reasonably priced battle bowies is custom maker Bill Siegle who can be found right here on Blade Forums.
 
thanx for the input!

Is the Ontario Bowies the way to go, or are there other battle bowies
out there that you would recommend?

does Bill Siegle have a web page?
 
Bill's web site is: http://www.geocities.com/siegleknives

Bowie's are of course one of the most popular knives and therefore are made by many manufacturers.

IMHO most production bowies are too thick and too heavy for a practical combat weapon unless you're a pro wrestler or a foot ball player.

Bill will make one to your specs and his experience for a very reasonable price. I had him make me one of 3/16 stock with a 10 inch blade. It's much quicker in the hand than a Cold Steel Trail Master or a Becker. Other good bowie style fighting knives are Randall's No. 1 (three year wait to order, resale prices generally too high to pick one up from a forum or eBay) and don't overlook the Camillus Fisk bowie. Well balanced, nice 7 1/2 inch blade although the clip isn't sharpened. The new ironwood handles ones are expesive but you may be able to find the previous curly maple handle release for around $ 200 used.

Search the Customer Maker section in Blade Forums Exchange area for his name and you'll find lots of examples of his work and lots of compliments. You'll also find a lot of other makers in the Custom section.

Good luck. You'll likely have to try several bowies before you find one that "fits". Of course that's part of the fun of being a knife knut.
 
The problems with MOST custom bowie knives are the cost and the wait. If that is not a worry, then, by all means, go for it, buy a Bill Bagwell original, or other custom bowie. But, if you want a really nice fighting bowie in the tradition of the original ones, buy an Ontario version. They a very "alive" in your hand and very much weapons, not tools. If you want a tool, look at the Cold Steel Trailmaster or some other bowie model, depending upon your budget and your tastes, but don't bother with the Hells Belle or any other Bagwell design as you will be disappointed. They are much too focussed.
 
Bill Siegle does very good work at very reasonable prices. A very pleasant maker to work with. I have done many knives with him and he has yet to miss a shipping date (he will ship exactly on the date promised). Here are four of his big bowies, all in 5160.

n2s
 
Bill Siegle is a class act,like Not2sharp said, he'll ship the exact date he says, if not sooner. He grinds one hell of a fine knife. Bills knives are the ULTIMATE in getting more than you paid for.
 
Those Siegle Bowies are quite handsome, but I would not describe them as fighting knives, not in the same class as a Bagwell, custom or by Ontario. If you look at the picture on the attached site, you will first note the very curved quillons. These curve toward the blade and have a larger curve on the edge side than the top side so that they may more easily trap an opponent's blade. This is also the purpose of the small "Spanish Notch" at the rear of the edge, to trap an opponent's blade. The weight of the knife is somewhat biased toward the tip so as to make for an effective slashing weapon, but not so blade heavy as to impede the quickness that is necessary for a fighter. Now, note the very sharp, almost needle point and extensive false edge. Mine came unsharpened, presumably as a nod to state laws forbidding "double edged dirks", but it was quite easy to sharpen, and it makes for a deadly Back Cut, in the James Keating style. This is when you have slashed across with a forward cut, you can then whip the blade back and, as you contact your opponent, sort of flick your wrist up and back to give the tip more momentum. It is a deadly, and usually unexpected maneuver according to Keating. Now, compare these with the Siegle knives in the above post. The guard, you cannot really call them quillons, is too small to do much more that prevent your hand from sliding down onto the blade and there is no "Spanish Notch". My gues, having not held one, is that they are more blade biased so as to make a better "chopper" as a camp knife, a quite valid and reasonable use. And the tip does not appear to be as emphasized as it is on the Bagwell blades, but the Siegle knives were very likely not intended to be primarily fighters, as the Bagwells were. Remember that I had said that the whole point of the Bagwell blades was that they were uncompromised fighters.

http://www.1sks.com/images/ontario/on-bb4.jpg
 
...and that is what I am looking for, a battle/combat bowie. So, if anybody knows of anyone who specializes in these types of knives, please let me know....thanx for the input!:D
 
My guess, having not held one, is that they are more blade biased so as to make a better "chopper" as a camp knife, a quite valid and reasonable use.
Click to expand...

The one on the right, that looks like a giant CS Trail Master, balances a little blade heavy. That one would make a nice all around camp knife. The other three are very fast fighters, like the Bagwell. No comment on the guard and notch. My usual knife fighting strategy is to turn and run as fast and as far as I can. :)

n2s
 
Bagwells ideas about a fighting bowie comes from the idea of blade on blade dueling, I dont see that happening anymore so I dont see the need for blade catching guards or the spanish notch. A knife fight nowdays will be more like some homeless guy or some gangbanger pulling out a cheap switch/tactical that they got from the flea market while demanding your wallet to which you pulling out a bigger nastier knife will usually have the guy backing off. In a case like that I would be carrying a gun if legal (CCW) or the largest folder I could get away with. Just my thoughts I could be wroung...............
 
Cyblade,

I disagree. Perhaps the majority of "predators" out there are of the scavenger species, looking for an easy victim, one that will not fight back, or cause problems for the assailant. Those predators are likely to leave when they sense that they no longer have the upper hand.

However, there does exist (however rare) the "true predator", someone who is bent on accomplishing their vile task regardless of the amount of resistance their victim offers up. It is for this person that training, mental preparedness, proper tools, and the grace of God is required.

Did you catch the part about the proper tools? If you are faced some day with having to defend your family or property from a knife wielding assailant, and running away (always the best defense against a knife) is not an option, then having the proper knife and the training to use that knife is the only thing separating you from being a victim or survivor.
 
GITCH-U

Welcome to the forums.

As you might imagine subject of knives and knife fighting has been discussed here numerous times. Generally in a knife fight, especially a duel of some kind, the lucky guy ends up in intensive care and the other guy ends up dead. Often they both end up dead. A wise person would consider a "fighting knife" to speak more about a style of knife, rather then the act.

The spanish notch was traditionally used on guardless knives to help prevent fluids from simply flowing along the edge and onto the handle. The notch creates a drip point to break up the flow. Why anyone would think that such a small device should serve as a blade catch is beyond me. If I wanted to put a blade catch on a knife, I would have it as far away from my hand as I could, and certainly not next to the handle. Has anyone ever actually managed to intentionally block an attack by catching the opponents blade in a spanish notch? I doubt it.

The guard on the other hand makes some sense. There is a well developed left handed daggers tradition for dealing with sword attacks. But, the key here is that they were dealing with swords and not knives. The knife is far thougher and more manuverable. You are probably not going to break your opponents knife, and I suspect it is very unlikely you would be able to catch or hold his weapon.

Romantic fantasy may be fun, but it doesn't belong in a fight. Perhaps, before you head down this road any further, it would be worth wild to buy a couple of cheap paki knives at the flea market, knock off the edges (they usually come this was), and spar a little with someone to see how it feels.

n2s
 
FullerH please don't slam a knife based on a picture.

If you read my post you'll note that I sold two Ontario Bagwells on my way to getting a Siegle.

The Ontarios are way too thick in the blade and the handles are too slippery and fat in the hand for a practical large knife. The curvy quillons may work for Bill Bagwell but aren't really practical for carry. IMO the Ontario Bagwell Bowies are wallhangers, what my wife would call "pretties".

My Siegle was made to my specifications in a very reasonable time (less than one month) for less than $ 250. It is strong, light, and lively. It is certainly not a chopper like a Trailmaster but if you want a chopper, Bill will build you one.

However, this is really a moot argument since all the real knife fighters have been dead for about 150 years.

My first choice for a knife fight would be to not show up, my second a Colt 1911 with two spare magazines, my last choice would be a knife and that knife would be my Randall Model 1 with six inch blade.
 
I have admired the Hells Bells bowie ever since it came out. But have not had a chance to handle one. About a year ago I noticed the Ontario Knives was offering a blade that looked remarkably simular to the Hells Bells except for the guard and handle. There is no guard to speak of and what there is is integral with the plastic/rubber handle. However, the price is really reasonable. I got one for less than $50.00 with the idea of removing the handle and replacing it with a custom guard and handle. The blade is black epoxy coated. I don't know what the steel is but I suspect it is something like 1095 carbon steel. It came quite sharp and is very quick and handles well. I believe that Ontario calls it a "Frontier Bowie". If any of you are familiar with it and the Hells Bells I would like to know how they compare, disreqarding the handle/guard.
 
I'm not trying to pick a fight but if your talking about at home you're better served with a 12ga pump loaded with #4buckshot which costs about the same as an ontario bagwell bowie, as far as away from home I would think that local law would forbid you carrying a knife that is that big and if you should have to use it in defense of yourself you would be put under a spot light "why was he carrying such a huge knife" "maybe he was looking for trouble" then from a liability standpoint when the person that attacked you sue's if he lives and the family sues you if he doesnt your choice in weapons will be pointed out. The lawyer will say "He bought a knife that had no other purpose but to be used to kill" then he'll talk about the long slender blade with a sharpened back edge "that makes it easier to stab someone" and you'll be looking at paying some punk or his family 10 million. I would suggest a folder like a spyderco endura or if you want a fixed blade the spyderco perrin might be a good choice and carry a small can of pepper spray, then you could spray the guy in the face and if he continues to attack you use your knife then you can point out that you tried a non-lethal way of handleing the assault and when that failed you pulled your "work" knife out and slashed the guy. Just remember that pulling the knife is considered using deadly force and in most places you must prove that you were in fear for your life or that of your loved ones or you might be facing jail time. You might wanna get a copy of the local laws covering concealed weapons and the self-defense considerations as laws in some areas are better than others. For instance in texas if a guy comes in your front door without permission and you kill him they'll come take your statemant and cart the dead body away, in californa you must prove that you couldnt jump out the secound story window and run away from your attacker or they'll charge you with murder. Just my advice for all it's worth.
 
Cyblade, your point is well taken, thank you for your well thought out input.

Perhaps I should have clarified my intentions and a little background:

I practice a knife fighting style in the fashion of the late Mike Inay, who personally has instructed me, and my instructors.

The Inayan system is Phillipino in origin, and utilizes slashing type cuts, checks, parries, and traps, etc.

I feel that the combat bowie with a large, heavy blade would be an ideal weapon for me to use as a home/personal defense tool, and would work well with the knife fighting style that I would incorporate.

I have also been instructed in the legal areas surrounding knives and using a knive in a fight. I have always believed that trying to avoid a lethal situation is best, I am merely talking about your response to an assailant after all other non lethal options have been exhausted, and a gun is not available.

I agree that a gun would make a better self defense tool, but don't be fooled...having a gun does not necessarily give a person an advantage over someone with a knife, and a gun may not always be an option. We don't have concealed carry where I live, and a gun at home is usually not as accessable as a knife in a quick response type situation. (if it is locked away etc.)


thank you.
 
not2sharp,

thank you for the welcome...I just thought that you might be interested in the name of the fighting style that you mentioned in your post: the fighting style in which a person holds a dagger in the weak hand (often the left) and a short sword in the strong is called ESPADA YA DAGA or sword and dagger...one of the fighting styles I have and currently am learning.

I have also studied Kadena De Mano, Aquaridus (spelling), and the art of sinawalli (double sword weaving)...fun stuff :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top