Ontario Bagwell Hell's Belles

[jdm61]

I bought this knofe and two other Ontario Bagwell's on Ebay. I actually bought them as pattersn for some things i want to make eventually but I thought I might throw out a review. Anything about the Hell's Belle pretty much applies to the other two. Nice balance for a long Bowie, much of this iI suspect coming from the narrow blade and the LONG handle, sharp as all get out. It does cut viciously forwards and backwards just like Bill Bagwell says it should. Now for the cons. Not the greatest workmanship. I wonder if they copied one of Bagwell's knives that he made on one of his lazier days. I have a real Bagwell that has one or two fit and finish issues. My main issues are blade steel choice, grind and edge geometry. Not sure why they chose 440A. The knife does not have the distal taper that my Bagwell does nor does it have a convex edge. As such, when you get to the sharpened clip, the edge bevel is pretty severe both on the clip and the cutting edge. Almost like a mini sabre grind if that makes any sense. This all causes me to wonder how long it will hold that super sharp edge. The lack of adequate distal taper makes me want to find out if a bowie of similar dimensions that had more taper could possibly get by with a slightly shorter handle. The handle issue does not apply so much with the smaller knives.

 

[S. Brown]

you have a custom Bagwell...I envy you. Oh, I also noticed all of those cons and it made me want to get a CS Laredo instead.

 

[jdm61]

you have a custom Bagwell...I envy you. Oh, I also noticed all of those cons and it made me want to get a CS Laredo instead.

I bought them for ideas for my own knives. If i made a knife from steel that thick (my real Bagwell looks like 3/8's stock), i would tend to make the blade a bit wider and taper it out more and do a shorter handle with a thick buttcap to get the balance right. The handle length is okay on the shorter blades.
I bought the real one a number of years ago from Plaza Cutlery I think. They also had an early Hell's Belle with an oasge orange handle and one of the carved blackwwod gent's bowies. Any would have been nice, but I kinda wanted the stag. Today, I would probably buy the blackwood knife, but they cost a lot more than I paid, even accounting for inflation and if I were to buy a larger bowie nowadays, i would probably look for a Harvey Dean or Don Hanson knife.

 

[Irminsul]

I bought this knofe and two other Ontario Bagwell's on Ebay. I actually bought them as pattersn for some things i want to make eventually but I thought I might throw out a review. Anything about the Hell's Belle pretty much applies to the other two. Nice balance for a long Bowie, much of this iI suspect coming from the narrow blade and the LONG handle, sharp as all get out. It does cut viciously forwards and backwards just like Bill Bagwell says it should. Now for the cons. Not the greatest workmanship. I wonder if they copied one of Bagwell's knives that he made on one of his lazier days. I have a real Bagwell that has one or two fit and finish issues. My main issues are blade steel choice, grind and edge geometry. Not sure why they chose 440A. The knife does not have the distal taper that my Bagwell does nor does it have a convex edge. As such, when you get to the sharpened clip, the edge bevel is pretty severe both on the clip and the cutting edge. Almost like a mini sabre grind if that makes any sense. This all causes me to wonder how long it will hold that super sharp edge. The lack of adequate distal taper makes me want to find out if a bowie of similar dimensions that had more taper could possibly get by with a slightly shorter handle. The handle issue does not apply so much with the smaller knives.

I have an Ontario Bagwell Hell's Belle also. It was advertised as being made out of "proprietary steel" but no mention of 440A. When you say they chose 440A, do you mean the Ontario version or the Bagwell original that you also have?

 

[Minuteman]

you have a custom Bagwell...I envy you. Oh, I also noticed all of those cons and it made me want to get a CS Laredo instead.

I made the same decision a number of years ago and went with the CS Laredo. In the long run, though, I wasn't particularly pleased with that choice either.

I had the knife for several years and liked it reasonably well. Then one day I picked it up after a period of non-use and found the handle to be quite loose. One of the reasons I bought the Laredo was because the handle attachment seemed to be a rock solid. As you know, though, the nut is ground off flush with the handle and there is no way to retighten it if it ever comes loose

I ended up deciding I never really liked the stock handle that much anyway so a good solution would be to put a nice walnut stained curly maple handle on it instead. I had great visions of hand rubbed flame maple on that big Bowie blade.

Well, much to my dismay, I found upon removing the stock handle that this knife was not designed anywhere near the way I expected. I assumed there to be a typical rat tail tang inside. Not so! The blade actually has a VERY short stub tang that is only about an inch or two long. Then there is a piece of braided steel cable swaged to that with a short piece of threaded rod welded on at the rear. So the majority of what runs inside the handle is just a piece of flexible cable.

Apparently, when my handle came loose, this cable relaxed its windings slightly allowing it to grow a bit in length.

I have never seen a quality knife made like this. It was not impressed. Furthermore, rehandling it will require welding on a longer tang, which is more than I had time to deal with right then, so the blade now just sits in a box somewhere.

Don't want to disappoint any Laredo owners. You may never see this problem reoccur, but thought it would be worth letting the community here know about.

 

[S. Brown]

Well, much to my dismay, I found upon removing the stock handle that this knife was not designed anywhere near the way I expected. I assumed there to be a typical rat tail tang inside. Not so! The blade actually has a VERY short stub tang that is only about an inch or two long. Then there is a piece of braided steel cable swaged to that with a short piece of threaded rod welded on at the rear. So the majority of what runs inside the handle is just a piece of flexible cable.

Man, thats a bummer, thats a really short tang. I hope that never happens with mine or else I'll have an excuse to get another big bowie How long did you have it before the handle came loose?

 

[the possum]

Well, much to my dismay, I found upon removing the stock handle that this knife was not designed anywhere near the way I expected. I assumed there to be a typical rat tail tang inside. Not so! The blade actually has a VERY short stub tang that is only about an inch or two long. Then there is a piece of braided steel cable swaged to that with a short piece of threaded rod welded on at the rear. So the majority of what runs inside the handle is just a piece of flexible cable.

What the HELL??!! I mean, c'mon... Really! I had given that knife a look in the past, but it's now firmly off my list!

If i made a knife from steel that thick (my real Bagwell looks like 3/8's stock), i would tend to make the blade a bit wider and taper it out more and do a shorter handle with a thick buttcap to get the balance right.

jdm61-
Since you have a real one there, could you tell me where its "dynamic balance point" is located? (you can search this forum for an explanation if needed.) I've been curious whether Bill tries to push it all the way to the tip or if he leaves it just a little further back or something for a shorter moment arm. Or if it goes well beyond the tip & he wants to swing the knife as a whole rather than rotate it.

 

[Minuteman]

Man, thats a bummer, thats a really short tang. I hope that never happens with mine or else I'll have an excuse to get another big bowie How long did you have it before the handle came loose?

I guess maybe three years or so.

If it happens to anyone else, my advice would be to just keep sending them back to CS and getting new ones for the rest of your life. Make it their problem. I would have if I'd known what was inside.

You know one issue with a piece of cable versus a rat tail is when you tighten a nut on a rat tail, only the nut turns and snugs up against the handle. But with a piece of cable, when you start torquing the nut, the CABLE itself is also going to begin to twist and shorten slightly. Once the nut is tight the friction would tend to hold the cable in this twisted position, but if the friction failed to hold, the cable could untwist even if the nut never moved on the thread at all. That is probably what happened.

By the way, how much money could they have saved going this route? Less than a dollar?

 

[S. Brown]

Yeah, I've had mine for about a year, hopefully it will not go down that route.

 

[Jockohomo]

Thanks for the info. on CS Laredo weak tang/handle. Often toyed with the idea of getting one just to compare with my Ontario HB ( also have the Gambler ). Now will never waste my money on one.
Still, it makes me wonder what's going on beneath the Ontario Bagwell handles...
Anyone know how they are constructed?
Also, how does Bagwell handle his original Helles Belles?

 

[James Green Dragon]

Wow. Thanks for the information.

I got a vintage trailmaster back in the day. Always toyed with the idea of getting a Laredo though - not now - not ever LOL...

 

[crossada]

probably better stay away from the new cs natchez bowie also!:barf:

 

[Irminsul]

Thanks for the info. on CS Laredo weak tang/handle. Often toyed with the idea of getting one just to compare with my Ontario HB ( also have the Gambler ). Now will never waste my money on one.
Still, it makes me wonder what's going on beneath the Ontario Bagwell handles...
Anyone know how they are constructed?
Also, how does Bagwell handle his original Helles Belles?

I have a Gambler too, along with my HB. This is surely a timely thread for me since I was also considering purchasing a CS Laredo. Have reconsidered now. I'm thinking now of one of the Atlanta Cutlery's Primitive or Western Bowies, unless I hear similar criticism. At least these are much less expensive than the CS!