Ontario Rat 1 in D2 Steel Edge holding

neffarious

neffarious

Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
2,398
I am really impressed by this steel. This knife is my tailgating/game day knife. We are die hard Clemson fans and are always using zip ties and tape and cardboard etc in our tailgating activities. I have cut more zip ties with this than any other blade I use. These are the thick ones holding up banners and tying flag poles to other structure to keep them in place. Boxes, tape, whatever, it gets thrown at it. I got D2 for two reasons, first it was orange, second it's always been regarded as a tough steel, while still remaining semi stainless. Also, my wife sometimes uses it and i never know what she might try.

Ok, so I have taken my Edge Pro to this knife once since I got it. FWIW I put a mirror edge at .xx micron blah blah blah, when I got it. Once in the past year I have sharpened it. I cut a LOT of zip ties today when we were taking down all the Clemson banners and flags. I thought for sure I was going to need to at least touch it up. NOPE! It's still hair popping sharp. I was pretty amazed. I have had knives in a lot of steels, M4, S110v, CPM154, s90v, XHP, etc. S110v and s90v i would be a little afraid to use as "hard" as I do with the RAT because sometimes there is something metal behind the zip ties I cut. M4 is a great, but it's also a bit harder to maintain with the humidity and sweat when partying outdoors.

I am really impressed. I had a CPM154 Leek I was using yesterday doing similar work around the house. I was assmebling an outdoor Rattan Tiki Bar and there was a lot of cuting of light materials and some Rattan to make it all pretty. My leek needs to be sharpened. It's still sharp but not like it was. I've used S30v in this fashion and VG10 etc. The Ontario D10 outshines them all in these conditions. I think S110v of S90V would be up to the task in edge retention, I would fear the toughness would not be where I would feel comfortable. At any rate I just wanted to say Kudos to Ontario, you did well with this one. I am going to get a Rat 2 in D2 when it comes out. It's the best budget folder period. I have had the Spyderco Tenacious line, the Cat, Boker, and Byrd knives, as well as Cold Steel in Aus 8 and others I cant remember. I have to say none at this price point hold a candle to my RAT. Aus 8 is an ok steel and easy to sharpen, but for the slight price bump the D2 takes it to a different place. It's also very comfortable to use and hold, etc... no hot spots or use issues. I trust the lock. It's smooth to open and is just overall a pleasure to use.

Sorry for the long post but I was so impressed with the knife and steel after using it for a year or so I just felt I needed to tell this to everyone. Again, well done Ontario. Thank you for this fantastic knife. It will always be in my collection.

I did replace the clip with a purple anodized titanium one to go with the Solid Orange :)
 
D2 is a great steel. even better when a proper heat treatment is used (for example carothers performance knives, doizer etc). but for the price of the Rat1 in D2, its hard to beat.

the Rat2 in D2 (and also a cf version) will be out by the end of the year.

after getting diamond stones i love the stuff more. but to be honest, i will use other steal that doesnt chip as much after a lot of use. as i mentioned there is an optimal heat treatment that they just dont use in china. its still a great steel, just not maximized to its fullest, and for the price its very hard to beat.

check out the tests Pete at Cedric & Ada outdoors and gear has done with D2.

https://www.youtube.com/user/CedricAda/search?query=D2


found this mostly interesting.
Via this thread about "your take on d2" http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/your-take-on-d2.1504785/page-3#post-17293163
someone posted a link to another quote from Nathan

http://xf.bladeforums.com/threads/any-experience-with-nathans-d2.1470902/#post-16929136
I probably have more experience with my D2 than anybody, I have them around the shop, my own skinning knife, and my steak knife. I use it all the time, it's probably my favorite steel and it has been running circles around and handing out spankings to the stainless super steels for years.

D2 is probably my favorite steel and I do a very good job with it. My heat treat for it has developed over the years and I feel it represents the best in the industry. I've been very open with other makers about what I'm doing with it and my techniques for it are now widely adopted to the point I see new makers talking about the process and unaware where it came from.

Complex steels like D2 usually have a basic "built in" grain size that results from their alloy and its reaction to an anneal. By default D2 is usually around 12-13 intercept grain size which is relatively fine grain.

Pre-quenching in D2, M2 and other complex steels is a grain refinement step that violates the "only one austenitizing per anneal" rule for these steels meant to avoid the extreme grain growth they're prone to on a second heat which creates a large fish scale style fracture. When done improperly it can have no effect or can lead to intercept grain size as low as 1 (extremely coarse).

Prequenching, when done properly, can refine the grain upwards of 17 or more, which is a very fine grain condition. This is based on research by Teledyne VASCO.

Before going further, let me state that grain refinement to this level serves no purpose in-of-itself and very fine grain, beyond a certain point, doesn't make a better knife. This is a widely misunderstood concept among makers and knife nuts. That's not what this is about.

There are a couple steps about pre-quenching I don't recommend to other makers because they have to be adjusted for each heat batch because the variations in alloy content and material condition effect the heat treat response and can lead to problems if done improperly. This is one reason I don't use D2 much any more, because every single batch needs special attention to be fully optimized. This is particularly true going from one manufacturer to another, because D2 is like hotdogs, they can all put different ingredients into it, and a .8 vanadium will react differently than a 1.2. But, when the time and temp is dialed in it refines the grain (which is not a bad thing) and puts carbon into solution, reducing the soak time and temp for the second heat which I believe may be very significant in minimizing naturally occurring structures that play hell with edge stability such as RA that converts in temper rather than during the quench.

The end result of a fully optimized D2 is a durable knife with outstanding edge retention, good corrosion resistance, and that toothy D2 edge that just keeps cutting. While not as durable as 3V, it's more durable than most, and it just keeps cutting and cutting.

Sometimes D2 can be somewhat brittle, but our final cut testing yesterday of a knife from this batch had a thin D2 knife at 18 DPS at HRC 63 cutting some 4D nails without chipping.

We're using Crucible D2 for this batch, but not their CPM version. This was not to save cost (less than $2 difference per blade) but to avoid the small rounded carbides that fall free from the edge. It's a good process to promote toughness, but it spoils one of the best properties of D2 in a knife, so we use a conventional melt.

If you'll try it, I promise you'll like it.
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I'm sure it's not made in China... Nor is it Chinese steel. I've never had it chip on me. It's a folder and for a folder I think the heat treat is great.
 
neffarious said:
I'm sure it's not made in China... Nor is it Chinese steel. I've never had it chip on me. It's a folder and for a folder I think the heat treat is great.
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It is made in China. And the steel can be from China also, but may come from anywhere in the world as their are around 50+ variations of d2" steel. Indeed the heat treatment is not terrible... But it is no where near optimum. Glad you like it. It can chip tho. Not necessarily often.
 
Well, I have never used their Aus 8 version to say, but it's kind of a good conclusion to reach I think that no matter what heat treatment was reached on the D2 it's still probably better stuff than Aus 8 since the same manufacturer probably did the heat treat for it. I'm sure that there's some Paul Bos D2 out there that would put mow to shame, but I mean, I don't think that a $25 dollar folder with D2 is anything to scoff at no matter what the heat treat on it.

I know that I've been really impressed with it over a year's use as well, and I haven't really experienced any chipping with it, but I've been pretty cautious about that from the start because I knew that D2 was supposedly more prone to it. But what I'm most impressed with is just the shear edge retention in terms of wear resistance. I sharpen it once every couple of months and even that's just because I get bored, in terms of it staying sharp enough to actually cut I probably wouldn't have had to sharpen the thing at all in a year's use.

In fact, I haven't posted in a while, and came searching the forums just to see what the chatter was about this knife after it's been out a while :P So I guess I'm not the only one impressed.
 
neffarious said:
I used the Aus 8 one, and it was good. It's not vg 10 or better good but it's good. This is waaay better.
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I haven't used a whole plethora of steels. 1095, 440C, 440A/B, AUS8, VG-1, 14C28N, and S30V. Of all those, S30V is the only one that I could compare this to. The wear resistance is definitely on par, but I'm not so sure about the toughness, I mean I haven't had problems with this chipping but it does seem noticably harder than most steels I've used and so it's almost like I can feel the brittleness in it, I try not to put it through much stress.

I was just looking at my edge and it seems it did pick up some super light rolling on some fatwood I shaved off for the grill. That stuff can be pretty rough on an edge and it's still plenty sharp, but it's definitely not impervious to hard-use wear. But as far as light-use goes, I don't think that I'd have to sharpen this thing practically ever if I just needed it to cut my every day stuff.

I also put a 30 degree inclusive edge on it versus the factory grind, so it could actually be a little better as far as the edge retention goes. I have another CF version I left stock but I haven't used it much, basically kept it as a backup for when this one eventually gets lost--my EDCs always slip out of my pocket or something. Which is honestly the beautiful thing about this knife, is that it's not exactly a costly one to lose, and it's sooooo popular that if it ever got discontinued I could find one no problem.
 
I have used a ton of different steels. Right now im liking my m390 griptilian. Generally im more of a carbon steel guy. As for the D2 used in the rat and avispa it is great i own and use both. I cut it no slack and do stuff you shouldn't do with any knife. Never expierenced any chipping from them. Now my m390 ritter grip chips.
 
I have an Ontario Dozier with the Taiwan D2. I use it as a yard knife; scrape the lawnmower underside with it. Holds up good, I keep a slightly coarse edge on it.
 
I've used D2 from Ontario, Queen, Benchmade and Manly, best bang for the buck steel out there.
I sharpen to 36 inclusive and have never seen a chip or rolled edge.
 
I have done all sorts of knife abuse things to this AUS8 RAT Model 1. It has held up great for years. That says alot about OKC heat treatment. If their D2 is processed with the same care, I couldnt ask for more. Especially at their prices.

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i just touched mine up after a full season of zip ties and cardboard (yay football!) It was still sharp, it could still cut anything, but i wanted it back to razor like.
 
neffarious said:
i just touched mine up after a full season of zip ties and cardboard (yay football!) It was still sharp, it could still cut anything, but i wanted it back to razor like.
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I read some of your earlier posts in this thread, the D2 used in the Rat folders is sourced from Germany according to Toooj.
 
Boru13 said:
I read some of your earlier posts in this thread, the D2 used in the Rat folders is sourced from Germany according to Toooj.
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Yes, I read the same post. It isn’t made in either China or Taiwan. The more expensive Okc folders use d2 sourced from South Korea, I believe. So no one that I’m aware of has sourced D2 from China.
 
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