Ontario RAT-7 tip failure

t1mpani

t1mpani

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Well, being a lover of hard working knives, and hearing so many positive things about the new RAT-7 from Ontario, I decided to give one a whirl. Ontario's record is not the best, and I initially had some reservations, but after hearing so many good things, and having a friend who has one of their Bagwell bowies which has performed very well, I figured maybe they'd pulled out the effort on these, given the higher price and collaborations status.

Well, I've had yet another lesson in trusting first impressions. I got my RAT-7 last night, and thought to myself, "Wow, pretty neat knife really!" The handle is really remarkably comfortable for being so simple, and the edge grind--while not even--was serviceably sharp, and razor sharp after just a few passes on a loaded strop. Overall, the design seems very good and functional, and I'd like to say Good Job to the guys at Randall Adventure/Training.

Seems Ontario forgot to stick it in an oven, though. Marveling at how comfortable and secure the handle was, I decided to test its grip-ability in stabbing. Having some old fencing material around, I grabbed a 4X4 (wood unknown, but doesn't seem to be treated) and figured I'd start off with some medium-effort stabs. By this, I mean that my arm was stabbing strongly, but I wasn't really leaning into it. Penetration seemed decent on the first couple, and then seemed to be dropping off. I knew I hadn't gotten tired that quickly, so I checked the tip, and it's FLAT! The front 1/8 inch of the tip is completely flattened--not bent to one side or broken off, but pushed in like I'd smacked it with a hammer.

I thought, maybe, there was something in the wood that it had hit, so I cut out the section I'd been working with, pulled out a one-handed sledge and a splitting wedge and busted the it open. There's nothing inside. I didn''t think stabs into wood should have done the damage to the knife that it did, but decided I'd do some comparisons. First, I pulled out my Camp Tramp and went at it, with no damage, then I moved to a Becker C/U 7, then (gaining confidence) went ahead and grabbed a bunch from my drawers, including a Kabar, Robert Hankins fighter, a thin-tipped Blackjack 1-7, and even my old Buck 110 (using a hammer grip with my thumb over the end, since it doesn't have a guard). I couldn't damage any of them, no matter how much I leaned into it. They'd just sink farther and farther into the wood.

I've been able to smooth out the tip on stones, and I may grind it down from the top to give it some pointiness again, kind of like SOG's shark tooth designs. Anyway, after all I'd heard, and even having said on these forums that I think Ontario is capable of doing it right when they try, I'm extremely disappointed with this knife. I know I haven't given it a chance in any other criteria, but I just don't think the quality control is there.

With the damaged (now non-existent) tip, I can't sell it, so I guess I'll lather it up with some RUSTFree and toss it in a toolbox. It's sharp enough to cut well should I be working on something and need a knife. Sure are a bunch of ways I wish I'd spend my $80.00 differently. :grumpy:
 
I am going to refer this thread to my good friend Jeff Randall. Don't be surprised if Ontario (or Jeff) contacts you to deal with this matter.

Despair not.
 
You could do a rough test for blade hardness with a smooth bastard file. Buy a nice new Nicholson 6" mill bastard file. Lightly sharpen the blade with the file in several places. With this category of knife I would expect about a 56RC hardness (58 tops). The file should cut the metal, but not easily. If it feels like it is really biting in to the material or if it is real easy to reshape your point with the file the blade has not been properly heat treated.

If it is only soft in the point region it is conceivable that it is intentional. The most common type of damage that I see to this type of knife is a broken point. Some might say that a soft point that cannot break is a good choice for a survival knife. I still wouldn't expect it to be nearly as soft as you describe. That sounds like a point that has been annealed (or left annealed).
 
Thanks Blues. :)

Jeff Clark,
Yeah, I know what you mean, I have a bunch of HI khukuries that all have soft points, though they seem to be a tad tougher. Anyway, I'll wait and see if I'm contacted before I start filing on it.
 
Keep in mind that Jeff and his Ontario contacts will be out of pocket for a few days due to the SHOT show so sit tight for a few.
 
I always thought 1095 was the wrong steel for these knives. Trying to heat treat it to 56-57 Rc is defeating the purpose of all that carbon, but taking it to 59-60 Rc the blade would be too brittle for that size of knife. If they made these knives out of 1080 they could be 57-58 Rc and have a much tougher knife with better edge holding. Of course if they used 1080 people would say they were using inferior steel even though it made for a superior knife. Go figure :confused:

Tom
 
Sounds like you got a lemon. I just repeated the same thing with my RAT and the tip is as pointy as ever. I even battoned the point into a bit of hard wood with no ill effects.
 
Originally posted by Ming65
Sounds like you got a lemon.
Click to expand...

Very possible...I'm in a holding pattern. :)


Edit: TLSmith, I LOVE 1084! Don't have anything made out of 1080, but I imagine it's much the same animal.
 
Although I don't have one of these, I have an Ontario Frontiersman and I once did several half power stabs into a log and popped the tip sideways and proceeded to bend the tip fairly easy. Since then I do not hold much faith in Ontario's 1095 steel. At $30 to 40 bucks it may be a good deal but compared to the Beckers at another $20, it is not even worth a second glance, IMO.
 
1whosells :

Since then I do not hold much faith in Ontario's 1095 steel.
Click to expand...

It is not really 1095's fault here, but Ontario's. I have seen 1095 knives from Ontario which were very solid, unfortunately it is all too common to see those which do not. That being said it probably isn't the best steel for those knives, it is however one of the cheapest steels you can buy. It is *much* cheaper than the alloy tool steels.

If the knife dented from stabbing a piece of wood, then either the wood had an inclusion, or the steel was dead soft. It takes annealed steel to bend that easily, you can't even do that with 45 HRC Hibben fantasy knives. If there was an inclusion then you could tell by looking at the area of impact, it will look different if it hit something hard, there will be scratches or fracture. As Jeff noted do a simple file test or just try to bend the tip.

If it was me, after doing a file check, I would vice the tip and check it for strength and see how much the flaw had propogated through the blade. There is also no need to just chuck it, return it for a refund. The only way you don't get your money back is if it was actually supposed to behave like that which I doubt that the manufacturer will claim.

-Cliff
 
I wouldn't put 1095 down too much the Marine KaBar Fighters of WWII were made out of 1095 at 57-59Rc and they did allright. Its all in the design and quality control.

Tom
 
I often reprofile knives which have a black blade coating by carefully using a file. Since the bevel is going to be conspicuous against the dark finish I like the margin between the bevel and the coating to be very precise. It I use a file I can get get a transition that looks machined. I would not defer the file test since it will not damage the blade if done neatly.
 
My RAT-7 has always been nearly as good a chopper as my Battle Rat. Just stabbed it a dozen times into a 2X4 as hard as I could and pried out the point with no ill effects. I even intentionally stabbed a knot and pried it out sideways as well. I love this knife!

Unfortunately, I think you got a lemon. I've heard enough QT stories about Ontario knives to wonder why this is still a problem?

- Paul
 
Mine gets here tomorrow,I sure hope I get a good one. I've been wanting it for awhile and now thats it's on it's way............and after reading this.....................Hope I get a good one.
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp

It is not really 1095's fault here, but Ontario's. I have seen 1095 knives from Ontario which were very solid, unfortunately it is all too common to see those which do not. That being said it probably isn't the best steel for those knives, it is however one of the cheapest steels you can buy. It is *much* cheaper than the alloy tool steels.

-Cliff
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I agree, I have seen such a variation in quality from the 1095 used by ontario that it is very funny. I guess when you pay around $40 for a knife, then it is not a big deal, since returning is not hard. However, you always expect more out of a more expensive knife like the Rat 7 or RTAK, which are fairly expensive for Ontarios and are in a price range with some healthy competition like SwampRat, Cold Steel, and of course BK&T. All three of these companies have much better steel and I would rather have better steel, than micarta handles. This is why I have not bought the RTAK and the RAT7, which are both fine looking knives and look very purposefull. I would go with a BK7 or 9 before either one of those.
 
Cobalt :

I guess when you pay around $40 for a knife, then it is not a big deal, since returning is not hard.
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Depends, I would not want to mess around with return rates near what I have seen. The only time I can see using such equipment is if you were outfitting a large group of people and then you just buy 50 of the blades or whatever and collect and the rejects and send them back as a batch. As an individual however the situation is much different.

People also tend to be more accomodating with knives especially with the repeated public failures Ontario has seen. I would wonder if they would react the same way to other semi-critical equipment such as buying footware and having the soles fall off, stitching come apart at the seams etc. . If this was a repeated issue would you still consider buying them and wearing them on a serious hike. My feet are worth more to me, I'll save money somewhere else.

However, you always expect more out of a more expensive knife like the Rat 7 or RTAK
Click to expand...

It is still the same production company, I would not expect any different quality. The price is just there because of the name. Just like in clothes this doesn't mean anything in regards to quality. I see your point though, the quality should increase with the price. There are lots of alternatives though, I would agree with the ones you mentioned.

-Cliff
 
t1mpani,

Jeff just wrote me (he's still in Vegas) and here is part of his reply:

"If you will type him a note on Bladeforums telling him to return it to Ontario and a new one will be sent. Post my email address up in the thread and tell him to drop me a note and I will send him a refund on his shipping charges. No problem....100 percent no questions asked guarantee."

Jeff's email is jeff@jungletraining.com

Hope this is helpful. If you have any further questions, write Jeff and he'll be able to provide any additional needed info.
 
Originally posted by T Schloz
Is it possible that the tip was overheated during sharpening at the factory?

Tom
Click to expand...

This sounds like the highest probability. Some factory knives are also heat treated then ground too.....and the overheating is most likely to occur at the tip in both scenarios
 
Whoah! The whole second half of this thread is missing! Well, I won't reiterate all of it, but just for the purposes of anybody finding this topic someday and wondering what happened, Jeff Randall and Ontario were very concerned and easy to work with. I ended up repairing it myself, but was given the option of returning/exchanging at zero cost to me. Situation was/is completely resolved and my experience definitely seems to have been pretty unique--the exception and not the rule on the Randall/Ontrario collaborations.
Final resolution = :)
 
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