Ontario RAT-7

[YuriM]

I'm looking for a decent fixed blade in the 6-8" range, and I was considering an Ontario RAT-7. I've handled it at a local knife store, and I like the look and feel. The 1095 steel sounds good too.

However...

I've read several posts here about less-than-satisfactory heat treatment on Ontario knives. None of it was directed specifically at the RAT-7, but it's giving me pause, nevertheless. How bad is the situation? Has it improved?

The other knife that I'm thinking about is, of course, the Swamp Rat Camp Tramp. From reviews, I've heard that it's an excellent knife, but I do like to handle things before making a buy.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[nozh2002]

Swamp Rat regular handles just does not look right because the way pictures were taken - browse their forum they have other pictures there wich expose handle better.

I can not say anithing about Ontario HT, I heart that for RAT they do it better. Other option to consider will be Ranger Knives RD6, RD7 or RD10.

Buck-Strider is bit more expensve but same kind of animal.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Buck-Strider is bit more expensve but same kind of animal.

Very different knife, that blade profile is suitable for cutting meat and similar, it can't function over the same scope of work as a Camp Tramp, not even close.

The other knife that I'm thinking about is, of course, the Swamp Rat Camp Tramp.

The Camp Tramp is a different knife than the Rat-7, the CU/7 from Becker is more of the Rat-7 style of knife. What do you want the knife to do well?

-Cliff

 

[kbog]

Camp Tramp is quite a knife indeed. I like mine quite a lot, but quite honestly, I never use it.

Handle is fabulous.
Blade is strong.
Edge is tough.

I don't like the coating too much. I found that it was easy to alter the look of the coating. It doesn't get removed, it gets "smoothed out". Not really a problem, but it causes some visual inconsistencies. I guess you just need to get into your head that the blade is not meant to be a looker, but rather a hard user.

 

[YuriM]

The Camp Tramp is a different knife than the Rat-7, the CU/7 from Becker is more of the Rat-7 style of knife. What do you want the knife to do well?

-Cliff

Hmm... The RAT-7, CU-7 and Camp Tramp seem to always be compared to each other, hence my assumption that the three are similar. I'm looking for a "medium-duty" knife for camp chores: light chopping, some prying and digging, but at the same time I'd like it to be a decent slicer/cutter. Basically, I'm looking for something to fill the gap between my Spyderco Native and my hatchet.

 

[Lobo103]

I've owned both the Camp Tramp and the Rat-7. Neither is what I would call a "bad" knife, although I've still gone back to using and carrying an SRK after both purchases.

 

[thebladeguy]

Hmm... The RAT-7, CU-7 and Camp Tramp seem to always be compared to each other, hence my assumption that the three are similar. I'm looking for a "medium-duty" knife for camp chores: light chopping, some prying and digging, but at the same time I'd like it to be a decent slicer/cutter. Basically, I'm looking for something to fill the gap between my Spyderco Native and my hatchet.

The rat-7 or the CU-7 would be perfect for that. The Camp Tramp or a Rd7 would be overkill. I personaly like the CU-7 better.

TBG

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't like the coating too much. I found that it was easy to alter the look of the coating.

Most coatings have this problem, especially for impact work like batoning which can knock it off in bits so it looks like the knife has the pox.

Hmm... The RAT-7, CU-7 and Camp Tramp seem to always be compared to each other, hence my assumption that the three are similar.

The Camp Tramp and CU/7 are very different though they looks similar. The CT is made out of thicker blade stock and has a more forward balance, it makes it a much more powerful chopper though the CU/7 does better for extended precision work due to fatigue, though using the choil notch on the CT helps significantly.

I'm looking for a "medium-duty" knife for camp chores: light chopping, some prying and digging, but at the same time I'd like it to be a decent slicer/cutter. Basically, I'm looking for something to fill the gap between my Spyderco Native and my hatchet.

That sounds more like a CU/7 than Camp Tramp, the handle are the only common problem with the Beckers, some find them slick and have security problems.

-Cliff

 

[YuriM]

Ok... So the CU-7 or RAT-7 for me. My other question still stands: how good is the quality control on RAT-7s? I've read that some people have had issues with Ontario knives. I'll try to get my hands on the CU-7 to see what it feels like.

 

[t1mpani]

Overall the sense seems to be that whatever HT problems exist (or have before) at Ontario, they do not extend to the RAT line of knives, I think likely because of the QC demands that the Adventure and Training folks demand in order to have their name attached to the product.

I have one that had a bad tip (posted over on the Evaluation and Testing forum) but this was jumped on almost immediately by both Jeff and the people at Ontario themselves. Both were VERY suprised by it, and the fact that it seems to be one of the only instances of trouble that's been talked about here, I think it was absolutely the exception. There is NOBODY out there with a perfect record. You simply can't test every aspect of every knife before they leave the factory and stay in business. Also, both Jeff and Ontario offered to immediately replace or refund it. I had already ground a new tip onto it, so I told them I'd hang onto it and see how it did. Well, I've been seeing for a long time now and it's still going great guns.

Personally, between the two of them (RAT and Becker) I like the RAT purely for the ergonomics. This is a very subjective thing, though--we all have different hands. Both are excellent tools and I am comfortable recommending them.

Edit to add: And, as has been mentioned, if you want to "magnum" things a bit, both Swamp Rat and Ranger are superb. I agree though--if chopping and hard use are not your intentions you might not want the extra weight. I don't mind it, but again that's subjective.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Overall the sense seems to be that whatever HT problems exist (or have before) at Ontario, they do not extend to the RAT line of knives...

The RTAK's had their share of problems reported, with large pieces blowing out of the edges on just light chopping. They do tend to stand behind their products though, I returned a few which had problems (blade too brittle, another with the tang too soft) and got a replacement, which also had problems. Randall himself has also noted that they will cover shipping costs so make sure to make a note of it if you do have to return it.

-Cliff

 

[Ming65]

My 2cents - I have prefered my RAT7 over the BK&T CU7 - for the ergos and overall feel. My Rat has been on several extended trips (canoe and walking) over a year or so and has been used mainly as a makeshift machete, splitting wood and camp knife/hammer/abuser. Still going strong, no complaints.

 

[t1mpani]

The RTAK's had their share of problems reported, with large pieces blowing out of the edges on just light chopping.

I wonder how much of that is a QC problem and how much is just 1095 being less than ideal for a such a big knife whose main purpose is chopping and clearing. I have one of the original Livesay RTAKs and I can't set its edge as acute as its fellows in 52100 and 5160 without seeing chipping. Granted, this is small damage and by no means blowing out, but it's still more than I like to see on contact with nothing but hardwood. And Newt knows his 1095. I think that the RTAK would benefit greatly from either 1065/1075 (if staying in the 10 series) or running the 1095 at around 53-55RC.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I wonder how much of that is a QC problem and how much is just 1095 being less than ideal for a such a big knife whose main purpose is chopping and clearing.

1095 isn't the ideal steel for that use, but the performance that Ontario gets isn't near its limitations. You should not blow a chunk out of a 1095 blade by chopping on a 2x4, if you do then it is a heat treat problem or more likely grind.

The RTAK has a fairly thin edge, the one I had went down under 0.015", that isn't doing to handle anything but light vegetation. When you set edges really low your QC has to be really tight as you are giving yourself no room for error.

I think that the RTAK would benefit greatly from either 1065/1075 (if staying in the 10 series)...

Yes, pick a steel which has toughness optomized for the hardness you want, all that extra carbon isn't doing you a lot if you under harden it.

... or running the 1095 at around 53-55RC.

When you start dropping the hardness to get impact toughness you end up with rippling due to loss of strength, change the steel instead. Plus once you start thinking about going under 58 for toughness, switch to bainite anyway.

-Cliff

 

[t1mpani]

A point or two higher may be better, but I have several GB axes whose edge hardness sits at about that level and are thinner edges than the RTAK. Once upon a time, Bowies and other big knives were not hardened to the same degree as smaller utility and pocket knives. It's only recently that the really high hardnesses have become the end all be all for everything.

I understand Ontario's like for 1095, as it is very easy to work with, and having just one steel for the whole line simplifies manufacture, but I think they'd be better served by a lower 10 series or 5160. Still would be cheap and easy to work with.

 

[whitedoor]

How about the Kabar Heavy Bowie? It's 1085 and only about $45. That would be a more appropriate steel for a large chopper, wouldn't it?

 

[t1mpani]

I don't have any experience with 1085, but yes by the numbers it should do a bit better. Would really be interesting to see a serious comparison of several identical blades out of the various 10 series. Unless someone takes it upon him/herself to make a custom order for such, though, it probably won't happen. There just isn't much interest in such "plain old" steels.

 

[YuriM]

As it turns out...

I'm getting both a RAT-7 and a Camp Tramp. I'd presented my dilema to my brother, he became interested, did some research and declared that he wanted the Camp Tramp for himself. By this time, I'd settled on the RAT-7. So we decided to get both. The Camp Tramp's going to be his, of course, but what's a little sharing between brothers?

 

[t1mpani]

I don't know why I keep myself from offering the "buy both" recommendation, as it so often is the best solution.