Opinion on a Francisca look alike

C

conwic

Joined
Jan 25, 2002
Messages
5
I'm looking for a hawk which approximates the characteristics of the Frankish throwing axe, the Francisca, of the 2nd to 6 century AD. I'm basically looking for something to experiment with, not a wall hanging replica or a handmade treasure that costs a fortune.

So far the closest I've seen seems to be either the French Lady Hawk from Alan Foundry ( 16 oz head and 18 inch handle) or the French Hawk for Salinski Foundry ( 14 oz/21 inches). ( I know that both are probably a bit light given that this is a throwing axe suppose to be capable of piercing chain mail, but I'de like to keep from getting "axe elbow" in my throwing arm.) I'de appreciate an informed opinion on how close these two seem to the real thing. Am I in the ball park here?

Anyone have any other suggestions that I should look at?

Anyone have these hawks? Comments on how they throw/chop? How about the foundries? Do they produce a quality - given price- hawk? My first attempt at finding a look alike had left me with a piece of junk import which cracked the poll in about 50 throws. I'de like something a bit better this time.

Regards- conwic
 
Welcome to BladeForums, conwic. I can't help you regarding the historical accuracy of either piece but there is some information about Allan Foundry's hawks in general in this thread. As you will see, no one could provide any feedback on the Salinski products. Since Ragweed Forge carries both Allan & Salinsky, you might want to ask if they can help you with the historical accuracy issue.

I also recall a thread in the Himalayan Imports forum in which one of the guys posted a picture of a Francisca style hawk & mentioned that it was his favorite. IIRC, he was talking about throwing but I can't be certain. Unfortunately, some of the older message threads are not showing up in search results. (The archives need to be reindexed.)

Finally, this page from Tiaan Burger's Web site has a pic of a very nice custom Francisca that he forged. I know he was doing research last year & was interested in historical accuracy so he might be another good source for you to explore.

Good luck. Please come back & let us know what you learn & what you decide to purchase. I don't have a Francisca myself... yet. :cool:
 
Thank you very, very much Brian. Excellant sites. Very helpful.

I think I'll go with the Allen product after reading the review you referenced. I shall be very interested to see how it performs. While not very duriable, the piece of junk one I have does throw well.

Regards and thanks again- conwic
 
As far as "look" goes, the French lady hawk is closest, followed by the French hawk. Both have too long a socket - by which I mean the socket goes down the shaft too far. The original franciscas had almost no tubular "socket piece", but were flush across the bottom of the head. You might try getting the lady hawk and (shudder) cutting off the "socket" part. Have you seen any pictures of historical finds of franciscas?

As far as weight goes, I don't have that information, but I can assure you that being hit by one of these things would be no joke. Whether they'd go through mail if they hit edge first is an interesting question, but keep in mind that the Franks mostly used them against people who didn't wear armour.

When they went up against the Byzantines, they hit big trouble. Not so much because their axes were no good, but because the Byzantines had superior tactics. They mowed the Franks down with arrows from the wings, before they got a chance to get within axe-throwing range.
 
Thank you, Egfroth. I had not noticed the too long socket until you mentioned it. Went back to what I had at the house, Picture History of Weapons by Reid, and found it exactly as you describe Thanks for pointing that out. Hmmm?

I am making an assumption about the weight here, based mainly on what I assume would have been the technicology of the time in forging weapons. Mass seemed to equal strength at this point, at least among barbarians. I suspect that the francisca 's body would probably have been a relatively soft iron with the cutting edge made of something like steel and pattern welded onto the axe body. I believe that the Fransisca was an armor piercing weapon both because Oman says it was in his admittedly ancient book The Art of War ( page 2, chapter 1 says it could piecre the Roman body armor) and since it seems to have appeared only after contact with the armored Roman Army, say 2 century AD. I tend to think the francisca was one of the responses developed by barbarian peoples of Northern Europe to fight armored soldiers, along with a copy of the heavy pilum and the axe hammer ( Angles- not Franks). I am not familiar with the history of the Franks vs the Byzantines, but the Franks did have a pretty successful run against the Western Empire's troops once they had learned from their initial defeats by the Roman army. That would have cerainly required a weapon capable of defeating body armor. Otherwise they would have ended up like the Celts, who oddly enough never seem to have developed usch a weapon.

Regards and thanks -conwic
 
Sorry Egfroth- I had a mind block there. You were talking about the battle of Casilium in 6th century where the Byzantine Army in Italy did just as you indicated and shot the Franks to pieces with horse archers. But, also as you stated, that wasn't a reflection on the francisca. Combined arms always trumps single arm whatever the century.

Regards-conwic
 
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