Optics for .223

raindog101

raindog101

Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
3,130
Hey guys, I'd love some advice on an optics question. I recently picked up a Kel Tec Su-16CA, and was looking at optics, most of which were geared towards AR's. I'm torn between 2 types of systems: a red dot with quick detach magnifier, or a tactical riflescope in 1-4X(like the Millett DMS or the Nikon M-223). I like the idea of the red dot system, as I expect this to be more of a sub-300 yard (with most shots taken under 200 yards) optic, and I can stay on target out to 100-150 yards pretty well with a red dot (historically), and the weight of the red dot sans magnifier goes well with the lightweight Kel Tec idea. But I've heard some say that the clarity of the magnifiers (especially the cheaper ones) leaves something to be desired. That they can't compare to the true riflescopes at 1-4X (which are also heavier, and fairly bulky). I have a budget of about $300, so that eliminates high-cost options like an Aimpoint, or EOtech. So, any comments or recommendations would be welcome.
 
Primary paper or people or varmint punching chores will make a difference on optics, IMHO.

I have the Millett DMS 1-4X on an M4, shot 8" bulls eye today at 200 - 4-5" groups w/855-not enough optic power for prairie dogs but fine for a man.

I have a 3-9X Bushnell 3200 on a CAR15 and it might do better than the M4 at 200.

I have a Nikon 6-18X on my RR EOP Varmint and it's fine for prairies dogs to 400 yards and a .5 MOA rifle.

I do all my shooting from a bench or a rest[ haven't shot a mirror or radio antenna off my truck yet]. I'm just an old trigger puller but better optics work for me. I use Red Dots or Holosights on .22 pistols and an AK47 but I don't see them for precision shooting at distances ..remember I am an OLD trigger puller.
 
OK, guess I should clarify a bit. Intended usage: close quarters out to 300 yards, paper punching (but minute-of-man accuracy would be OK), but sturdy enough to take a little backcountry abuse. This will not be used on a bench gun exclusively. Light weight is a priority, but not as much as speed of target aquisition, or clarity of optics. Think AR scope for 3-gun matches, and you'll be getting pretty close.

Unk said:
Primary paper or people or varmint punching chores will make a difference on optics, IMHO.

I have the Millett DMS 1-4X on an M4, shot 8" bulls eye today at 200 - 4-5" groups w/855-not enough optic power for prairie dogs but fine for a man.

I have a 3-9X Bushnell 3200 on a CAR15 and it might do better than the M4 at 200.

I have a Nikon 6-18X on my RR EOP Varmint and it's fine for prairies dogs to 400 yards and a .5 MOA rifle.

I do all my shooting from a bench or a rest[ haven't shot a mirror or radio antenna off my truck yet]. I'm just an old trigger puller but better optics work for me. I use Red Dots or Holosights on .22 pistols and an AK47 but I don't see them for precision shooting at distances ..remember I am an OLD trigger puller.
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I have a Kimber bolt action topped with a Leupold 2x7 , duplex reticle. I don't expect much more than 200 yds on 'chucks or coyotes.
 
At 300 I need to see exactly what I'm aiming at and what is beyond it..well, same for 50, 100, 200 so better optics would be a must for me in field shooting..ranges with berms are forgiving as to target misses...CF rounds can cover a lot of ground.

Imagine a good 3-9X would serve you well..lot of good scopes out there..I like Nikon's Buckmaster line..good quality and in my price range. I've used their binoculars and scopes for years with no issues.

Talk to your 3-gun friends and see what they think on optics for a 300 yard shot with your rifle...probably tell you to plan on taking more than one shot, LOL. Have fun.
 
Unk said:
Talk to your 3-gun friends and see what they think on optics for a 300 yard shot with your rifle...probably tell you to plan on taking more than one shot, LOL. Have fun.
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LOL! Yeah, I'm under no illusions about that part...
 
I shoot 3gun, and like others have posted the holographic sights work well to about 150m on 8-10inch targets. Little bit further on bigger targets. A good 1.5x4 or 5 with the best twilight factor and good glass is probably not in your price range new, so might check with your local 3gunners for something in the used market. Many shooters give the mount with the optics without including in price. If you plan on playing practical rifle or 3 gun games, get one with a fiber optic or illuminated dot or triangle. If you get really serious in rifle games, get one with ballistic drop stadia lines but be wary of too much clutter in the reticle. I shoot an fixed power 4x32 ACOG , but use axially mounted iron sight for close work. Be wary of off shore clones, they don't really last for rifle games. I know of at least one TA31F that showed up at a pawn shop for $250 but I think you would need an oven mit to take it home...Uncle Sam may want it back some day regards Les
 
Nikon and Leupold both have 223 scopes if I am not mistaken or they might be for the AR platform.
 
If your looking for a 1x aimpoint clone Primary Arms Microdot has been very well recieved by the AR community.

http://primaryarms.com/category.sc?categoryId=5

It will run you around $100 give or take, but its a very robust optic for its price (airsoft aimpoint this aint). You can shop around and find a low cost Po'Boys magnifier for just over your $300 budget. If nothing else it could be a Red Dot optic you test out to see if you like the concept without breaking the bank. It also could be an extra to your scope, meaning you would have a dedicated scope and then a dedicated red dot and switch between the two depending on what your using the rifle for.
 
MutedRaccoon said:
If your looking for a 1x aimpoint clone Primary Arms Microdot has been very well recieved by the AR community.

http://primaryarms.com/category.sc?categoryId=5

It will run you around $100 give or take, but its a very robust optic for its price (airsoft aimpoint this aint). You can shop around and find a low cost Po'Boys magnifier for just over your $300 budget. If nothing else it could be a Red Dot optic you test out to see if you like the concept without breaking the bank. It also could be an extra to your scope, meaning you would have a dedicated scope and then a dedicated red dot and switch between the two depending on what your using the rifle for.
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I just heard about Primary arms a few days ago, that's mainly what prompted my internal debate. I like the idea of having a red dot as my primary sight, and adding a magnifier for longer distances. But I've heard great things about the Millet DMS-1 that I really can't decide.
 
raindog101 said:
I just heard about Primary arms a few days ago, that's mainly what prompted my internal debate. I like the idea of having a red dot as my primary sight, and adding a magnifier for longer distances. But I've heard great things about the Millet DMS-1 that I really can't decide.
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What are your needs?

Hunting? Home Defense? Range Trips?

Your needs dictate what you should get, not what looks best or what people think is the best.
 
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MutedRaccoon said:
What are your needs?

Hunting? Home Defense? Range Trips?

Your needs dictate what you should get, not what looks best or what people think is the best.
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This is true. Let's say range trips/recreational shooting as the primary use. Not hunting (I have other guns for that), not home defense (I have shotguns and pistols for that). I expect most of this gun's shooting will be done within 200 yards, but would like the flexibility to put shots on paper out to a max of 300 yards. Whaddaya think? I'm really leaning towards a simple red dot, and adding to it later, but the Millett is within my budget. Just not sure how it performs when pressed into service as a reflex sight at close ranges. Anyone have any insights into this?
 
A friend of mine just picked up a sig red dot for 99$ new they had an over run so I was told by the shop owner they normally sell for 249$ so it would be a good deal but me personally I would save for a little bit longer and get something of a higher quality like the package deal on brownells web sight its 985$ but u get a eotec 557 witch has 4 1 moa dots the first is 0-3 then 4-5-6 respectively and comes with an a.r.m.s qd base and u also get the 3x magnifyer with flip to side mount kind of expensive but u would only have to buy once and could cover just about any situation just my opinion good luck
 
quick kill said:
A friend of mine just picked up a sig red dot for 99$ new they had an over run so I was told by the shop owner they normally sell for 249$ so it would be a good deal but me personally I would save for a little bit longer and get something of a higher quality like the package deal on brownells web sight its 985$ but u get a eotec 557 witch has 4 1 moa dots the first is 0-3 then 4-5-6 respectively and comes with an a.r.m.s qd base and u also get the 3x magnifyer with flip to side mount kind of expensive but u would only have to buy once and could cover just about any situation just my opinion good luck
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Thanks for the suggestion. Problem is, I'm cash-poor right now, and likely to stay that way for a while. So I'm basically looking for an entry-level optic ATM. EOtech is nice, had one on my old AR, but really isn't in the budget right now. I'm leaning towards the Primary Arms microdot, and adding a magnifier later, unless I uncover a sick deal on a Millett DMS. But thanks just the same.
 
After buying USO's, Leup. MIV's, IOR at al..... for carbine use I now use the Nikon Monarch 1.5-4.5 with Turkey Plex. Try it & you might find you like it. A lot.

It is not indestructable and no cranking of knobs but it is VERY useful.
2Door
 
raindog101 said:
This is true. Let's say range trips/recreational shooting as the primary use. Not hunting (I have other guns for that), not home defense (I have shotguns and pistols for that). I expect most of this gun's shooting will be done within 200 yards, but would like the flexibility to put shots on paper out to a max of 300 yards. Whaddaya think? I'm really leaning towards a simple red dot, and adding to it later, but the Millett is within my budget. Just not sure how it performs when pressed into service as a reflex sight at close ranges. Anyone have any insights into this?
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My version of rec shooting is different from yours I'm sure. We shoot clay "runners" (clays that are tossed so the bounce and roll across the ground) and for that a 1x is king. Its the single most frustrating experience you will ever have, unless you try it with a pistol. Its also quite addicting as you get so pissed at not being able to hit them that you won't stop till you get at least one...and then when you get one you think "That wasn't that hard, I could do that again" and then you promptly miss the next 25,000 shots in a row and refuse to quit till you hit one of those little bastards.

As for range time I'm partial to a 1x as well, no magnifier just the 1x. The dot size makes it harder at times, but for me being able to use a 1x and hear the "ping" when it hits the steel is enough. If we shoot paper I prefer a 1x and go for getting them on the paper and group size rather then putting them dead balls in the x. I'll use a magnifier if we start in with the I can shoot better then you routine, but mostly I'm just plinking around and working on being able to put a shot on any target at any distance in the first trigger pull...Where it hits I don't care, if I can hit it I'm happy.
 
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