OT ALICE packs

Joined
Feb 22, 2005
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175
My Scouts are looking to buy some personal gear, and being Scouts, we want to keep it as cheap as possible. I've looked on the internet and noticed that a number of surplus dealers are selling used but excellent condition ALICE medium packs for a little as 25 bucks,w/out the frame, 50-60 bucks with the frame.
My question to the vets out there is how necessary is the frame? If we were loading these things to the hilt, I can see the need, but how do they function frameless with 20-30 pound load?
Any and all info is greatly appreciated!

john k
 
I only used mine during 3 months of bootcamp, but I'll say I'd want the frame if only to keep the load from sticking in my back. The frame also has the waist strap which is obviously good for heavier loads. I'm sure some guys who had a little more experience with it will be along.
 
Interesting website that advocates buying his kits and sewing your own tent, backpack and sleeping bag. The prices are reasonable and all the sewing makes for an effective group project.
 
John K said:
we want to keep it as cheap as possible.
john k

Skip the frames, and just make sure the kids don't overload their rucks.

Sarge

p.s.: get a frame, a padded kidney belt, and a breastbone strap for yourself, us grownups sometimes don't know our own strength ;)
 
Sarge,

Some of us old guys forget the pain, fatigue, and wear and tear. Your P.S. suggestions are right on target... Damn, it's tough to grow old, but it doesn't have to needlessly hurt...

Carter
 
Carter Leffen said:
Sarge,

Some of us old guys forget the pain, fatigue, and wear and tear. Your P.S. suggestions are right on target... Damn, it's tough to grow old, but it doesn't have to needlessly hurt...

Carter

Some of the young turks I used to ruck with were fond of saying, "pain is nothing more than fear leaving the body". If that's in any way true, there's nothing much left for my scarred old carcass to be scared of. Snap, crackle, pop, I'm fearless. ;) :D

Sarge
 
There was a young and not very bright soldier in my unit while I was at Fort Lewis. I said something about pain one day, and he said whatever doesn't kill
you, makes you stronger.


I looked at him. There are definitely ways that could be true- hunger is [in moderation] good for the soul- but he'd never understand those ways.

So, if someone broke your arms and legs, and you lay helpless on the ground, even though you could no longer do anything, and anyone could do absolutely anything to you, you'd be stronger?

He looked sullenly at me for a minute.

Man, you're an @sshole.

Yeah, there's that.

But I never heard him say anything positive about pain again.

John
 
During the Civil War, a Union Army doc noticed that the human body was built to support weight on the pelvic girdle, not the shoulders. Putting weight on the shoulders interfers with circulation and in uncomfortable. Putting the same werght on the hips has neither effect.

Guided by these insights, he invented and patented a pack that had diagonal wooden struts to carry the weight of the GI pack down to a broad canvas cartridge belt.

The folks running the military nixed the idea, and the patent expired. (These were the same folks who thought magazine-fed rifles were a bad idea because they allowed the soldiers to shoot too fast. Back to single shot as soon as the war was over and that meddler Lincioln was out of the way. :rolleyes:) It took the military almost 120 years to get the message.

In about 1969, Kelty "discovered" the waist belt. Even by that standard, the frame pack with waist belt is hardly a new idea. Prresnted by this second discovery of the principle, the military stuck with rucksacks. (Let's not get precipitous! We're only a century behind the curve.)

Kids joint ends are still soft and subject to damage. They should carry any significant load for more than a few minutes only in a pack with a frame and padded waist belt -- that fit. Using such a rig, only about 20% of the total load should be on the shoulders, with the balance on the waist. (Lot's of info on the Internet on general topic due to kids injuring themsleves carrying bags of books to/from school.)

The Camptrails line of packs from Johnson Outdoor has good entry-level packs (Adjustable II). Campmor carries a frame pack (2780 cubic inches) for $39.97 (looks like Colemans nylon-framed pack) and gives a discount to Scout units.

Our Troop adults watch house/garage sales and get 6-10 used but perfectly useful packs a year for an average of $12-13 each (latest finds this week were two top-of-the-line Jansport's for $20.00).

The frame for the ALICE system was designed for skiing. It transfers no significant amount of weight from the shoulders. The same sort of farme was used in WWII on a different rucksack. Didn't work then either. (See "Kidney Killer")

More capable packs mean greater repeat participation.

More capable packs means the chance to go in colder weather when more gear needs to be hauled.

More capable packs allow longer trips.
 
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