OT:Big bore Marlins; Munk et al?

S

stevomiller

Joined
May 4, 2001
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Hey fellas, been lookin to maybe pick up a Marlin in .45/70 or .444. Do any of you have experience with both of these calibers? If so, which would you prefer for deer and hogs? I reload so ammo costs or availibility arn't a big deal. Do the .444 still have the Micro Groove rifling? If so I might lean more towards the .45/70 so that I could use cast bullets if I wanted to. Thanks in advance!

adios, stevo
 
I'll get one of the .45/70 guide guns someday, I've had my eye on one for a while now.

I learned a while back my wife almost bought one for Xmas for me! Back in October I was at the computer perusing dfw.forsale newsgroup, and a guy had one for sale at a good price. I exclaimed about it to my wife, but said I had to let it go since we're buying a house and we're on a budget. Sneakily she asked me a few more questions than usual, then later she snuck back on the computer and found the forsale posting in order to buy the rifle for me. Alas it was already gone, else I would have been dead from surprise on Christmas morning :D Yeah, I think I'll keep her ;) :D
 
The Highroad, heir apparent of the Firing line.


Yes, I have experience with the old Micro groove 1895SS. I'd get the ballard cut rifling today, for cast, but my micro shoots better than I can hold.
I also have a 336 cowboy in 38/55 with which I can meet 375 big bore ballistics.

...and I got a peachy keeno 45 Colt cowboy...


Ken Waters rang the snot out of the 45/70 years ago in his Pet Loads and you may want to look it up.

I don't think it matters much which bullet you shoot at hog or deer, though you may want to limit expansion (as many bullets are designed to expand at lower, tradional velocities for the 45/70) so you won't ruin a lot of meat.

Let me tell this brief outfitter story of the 45/70 in a modern lever for deer, customer comes back laughing. "what happened?" Asked the outfitter.

"Oh, IT Worked ALRIGHT. I saw this pink cloud rise out of the deer."


munk
 
I got a Marlin 1895G with ballard rifling a couple years ago. I added a Williams Foolproof peep sight to the rear. I absolutely love that rifle!

It helps to be a handloader if you get a .45-70.
 
I've only shot one deer with my 1895G, a small buck at about 50 meters. He fell over, kicked for few seconds, and died.

Shoulder shot.
 
I have a 444SS circa 1989 Marlin with the Micro-groove rifling in a 22" barrel. Cast bullets are not recommended, but as long as I use jacketed stuff I am alright, which is what Marlin optimized the rifling for. I chose the .444 prior to the huge resurgence in popularity of the .45-70 because it held one more round than the 1895SS, had a flatter trajectory and came in two bullet weights commercially, 240 and 265 gr. This appealed to me because I could hunt deer with both my .44 mag and .444 both loaded with 240 grainers, however the problem is that 240 is not the optimum weight for the .444, and 240 gr. handgun bullets pretty much come apart when fired in the rifle.

It wasn't until fairly recently that folks figured out that something on the range of 300 grains in the .44 would be almost ideal. That requires careful handloading, and for some idiotic reason the 265 gr. is no longer offered commercially, leaving only the 240.

Marlin made the switch to ballard cut rifling in the .444 a few years ago, so now folks can take advantage of hard cast bullets.

If I had it to do over again I would get a new .444 Guide Gun and see if Garrett cartrdiges or someone else could load me a hard cast 300 gr or 320 grain bullet which would just kick a%s on anything up to elk, if you got within 150 yards or so. I still feel the cartridge is as good as the .45-70, and does not kick as much. It just does not come in as many variations currently.

In any case, my .444SS is the model without the current stamped checkering. I added an Uncle Mikes recoil pad, a Weaver fool-proof peep sight and replaced the aperture with a Merit adjustable disk so I can crank it big or small depending upon the light. Finally replaced the carry strap with a nice heavy Competitor + sling from Brownells. One of my favorites.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but I was a gun nut long before I discovered knives or the new wonders of big shiny curved blades!

regards,

Svashtar
 
Oops! That should be a _Williams_ FP sight, not Weaver. Williams is by far the best IMO, and you can buy a bunch of different sized apertures it you like. One of the best is the large gold rimmed twilight aperture. I actually "fooled" my FP sight by stripping the receiver threads when mounting it too tight. I've heard the new Marlins don't come with the receiver drilled and tapped for receiver sights, which is a shame, as that was a nice feature of the older rifles.

Regards,

Svashtar
 
My 45/70 came with a Williams peep someone installed...by stripping the threads and then glueing the solution.

Marlin sent the sight back to me in peices. explaining what happened when they tried to take the sight off. They'd honored their guarentee by servicing the rifle.

I retapped the threads, and the williams sits on the Marlin.

The rap about the 444 Marlin was the rifling. The rate of twist was too slow to stablize heavier bullets in the 44. None the less, many Marlins shoot the 300's just fine.


munk
 
I bought a Marlin .444 in 1976. Put a Williams receiver sight on it. Usual load has been 300 grain JSP & a healthy dose of IMR-3031, Or same powder under 265 grain JSP. I have worked up some loads a few years ago with cast bullets that seems to do pretty well. The original load was using the old Herco #2400 & then putting Kapok in the case to keep powder down next to the primer. Deer & hog hunting here in this area of Tennessee & down through Northwest Alabama is usually fairly close shots. A long shot most of the time would be 100-125 yards. I have stayed with the 265 gr JSP load for the deer & etc. The load I use is not red-line, but it is stout. This load prints 5-shot groups in 1.75" at 135 yards consistently. I sighted in the rifle to be 2.50" or so high at 100 yards. Closest kill with it was 15 yards & it blew the deer off of his feet. The farthest one was about 80 yards & it took the buck in one shot......he did not take another step. A cousin of mine borrowed it to hunt hogs & came back & bought him one also. He is using basically this same load & his rifle turns in about the same performance. It think in the last few years, he has started using some heavy J.D.Jones bullets. I guess he is doing that so that he doesn't have to worry about bleeding the hog. I was sorry when I bought the .444 that I didn't buy the 45/70, but for what I have used the rifle for, I have absolutely no complaints. After seeing the 265 grain JSP in action the first time, I don't know that I need anything else around here.
 
I've noticed good rifles, like khukuris, have a sorrow to them in that they cannot be all rifles in one package. Actually, it is the humans who feel the turmoil; your 444 just keeps plugging along and plugging deer. It doesn't know if could have been a 45/70

Aren't there any 375 big bore fans out there?



munk
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies! Couple more q's since I've got you by the ear. Do you know if they have increased the rate of twist in the new .444s? If so that would be great, I would like the idea of being able to accurately shoot the 300gr bullets. How bad is the recoil of these rifles in the full size models (22" barrel)? If you were to compare it to say an '06 shooting 180 gr bullets what would the comparison be?

Munk, I almost bought a Marlin .375 out of the used rack about 10 years ago. It was in great shape and had a Williams peep on it - they only wanted $140 for it and I hesitated. Came back a couple of days later and it was gone:grumpy: I think that I read some where that the .375 was loaded hotter (pressure wise) than any of the other cartridges used in the traditional lever guns. Did I remember right?

Also, any recommendations for both a model and source for a peep sight for my 1940's Savage 99 in .250-300? The tang is factory tapped for one. I would like to put one on before I turn this rifle over to my youngest son this year for deer hunting.
 
Stevomiller; the rifle you let go is worth 500 dollars- at least all the ones I can find are. They aren't common, either.

Are you certain it was a Marlin and not a Winchester?

The Marlin 336 action is identical to the 336 cowboy I have now in 38/55 The cartridges are virtually identical. Cases for the Win Big Bore are made to withstand higher pressures, so a caveat to loading the 38/55 in a modern action is to watch the brass closely, or just use 375 brass for hot loads. Starline delayed introduction of 38/55 cases this summer as advertised. If they had, that would have solved any percieved case issue. But I'm not worried.

I like Levers. Aren't they neat? I own three. Figures t1pani likes the 375. He's the munkgeist, the dopplerganger of my firearms interests. Really, it's uncanny. I think he's been following me around when he's not assigned by the 'agency' to watch Bruiselee.

munk
 
Don't think of me as a spector, think of me as a companion raith... :cool:

BTW, did I tell you that I picked up an old Perchbelly Marlin 36 in .32 Winchester Special a few months ago, and a pre-64 Winchester 94 in the same caliber just a few weeks after? It's funny, but both of those rifles were shooting 100 yard 2 inch groups from a sitting position, regardless of ammo used, with buckhorn sights and my poor eyesight, no less! What they lacked in micro-groove rifling back then they made up in fit/finish and craftsmanship. After all, back when people really depended on these things, even the cheap ones had to work especially well. I'd love to see what they'd do from a rest.

I've yet to shoot a modern Trapdoor Springfield replica that can even start to compete with my original.

In case it hasn't come across, I REALLY like old guns. :D
 
Munk, I knew that I let a good one get away. Yes, it was definitely a Marlin and not a Big Bore Winchester with the reinforced arse end of the action. Did you guys know that Savage actually made the 99 in .375 for a very short time? Do you guys have any 99's ~ they are the king of cool in leverguns. Rotary mag, cartridge counter on side, no external hammmer, cocked indicator, a true safety, and can shoot high pressure cartridges. Pretty good for something that came on the market in 1895! My dads in .308 will put 5 shots into 1.5" consistently at 100yrds!

My pre 64 in 30-30 will shoot into 2" as well. One of my fondest memories as a kid was consistently outshooting all the wannabe riflemen at the range. I'd put 5 shots into 2" using the open sights while they sprayed their target with their latest super hoopty magnum with the 12x scope.


:p stevo
 
I considered buying a Whitworth Express in 458 winmag.
There was also a rifle in 375 h and h but i cant remember the type.

Are you married to the idea of a lever action ?
 
Yes, I know they made Savage 99's in 375 and I'm still looking. My gunsmith let one get away for 250, 300 bucks last year.

I haven't tried this, but speculate with the magazine of the Savage you could load the Speer 235 gr spitzer. The rotary mag may or may not have enough room. The cheaper box mag might actually work out better, not that i'm in a position to pick and choose.

But with the two khuks I just got I won't be buying either for a long while.
T1mpani- I just figured this out (btw- you are welcome to be my companion, it's lonely on the munk highway.) You collect more old guns than I do.


munk
 
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