OT: cap and ball pistols

Bobwhite

Bobwhite

Joined
Nov 30, 1999
Messages
2,913
Hey all. Any one out there in the cantina know anything about blackpowder cap and ball pistols? I would like to get a couple as I have a growing interest in Civil War history and weapons as well as the Old West. I used to own some automatic pistols, (Colt Gov't .45 and Berratta 9MM) but I ditched them a few years ago, my favorite shooter was always a single action .22 Ruger anyway. I don't have that anymore either. I like the way the single action revolvers balance and I would like to try some black powder shooting rather than get into the cartrige guns again. Maybe I will get a Single Action Army later, but for now I want to try the black powder thing. I want a good quality shooter that is like an old Remington or Colt Army/Navy varient or a Colt Walker. Something that will stand up to use and not blow up in my hand after a couple hundred shots or fall apart either. I don't have a bunch of money, but I don't want to get some cheapo crap. I believe you get what you pay for but I need a reasonably priced, relaiable gun; no frills, no sacrifice in performance. Not some collector piece I can't shoot. Any one out there who can steer me in the right direction? I was told to steer clear of CVA pieces as they are fragile under use. Is that true? What else is out there? Any help appreciated.
 
The absolute strongest (and best for the money) is the Ruger Old Army - Bill Ruger's re-design of the old Remington Army model, but in .45 Cal. Take a look at it :

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/rvsingle.html

Second one down (if the link holds up). This has been called the "black powder magnum" by some, but it (like any firearm) can go "kaboom" as opposed to just "boom". Even so, it is the only one made to the highest strength standards and it has been in Ruger's catalogue for years. You _might_ run into a good used one at a gun show, but they are rare. The stainless model gives you a leg up on cleaning (black powder is like four-wheeling. You gotta love getting dirty to really enjoy it) and is a bit tougher than the carbon-steel model. BP revolvers are one of the high points in shooting. They spout a cloud out in front of you that can completely obscure the target (shoot on windy days, but not with the wind in your face), and don't smile 'til the smoke clears :D
 
I agree with Walosi in regards to the Ruger Old Army - they are one solid C&B revolver!

Another choice might be the copy of the Rogers & Spencer .44 that Dixie Gunworks and Navy Arms both market. I have one by Euroarms that I got through a fellow Cowboy Action shooter that is a Navy Arms dealer, and it has been an absolute joy to own and shoot. The Rogers & Spencer has a top strap like the Ruger and Remingtons, mine has what Dixie calls the "London Grey" finish...looks and wears like a semi-matte stainless to me! I have competed with mine in CAS matches using a cartridge conversion cylinder w/BP loads, and target practiced with it shooting cap and ball...never a problem in either mode.

JMHO :)
 
Originally posted by Town Sergeant
I have competed with mine in CAS matches using a cartridge conversion cylinder w/BP loads, and target practiced with it shooting cap and ball...never a problem in either mode.
JMHO :)
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Osiyo Sarge!!!!
Can/will you please describe the procedure in changing from a C&B to a cartridge conversion?
Is there anything different done with the hammer and firing pin in the conversion?
And do you have to remove the cylinder each time to reload the cartridges or does the pistol have a provision for
that?
I know absolutely nothing about the old guns or the new reproductions except that I have got to shoot both a rifle and pistol a couple of times. And Walosi's dayumed sure right about the smoke!!!!:)

I have always liked the looks of the old B.P.Pistols with the backstrap and the Woolaroc Museum up by Bartlesville has a wonderful collection of old Colts, even some old rifles and carbines that are "6 shooters." The pistols without the backstrap look "wimpy" to me, but the old guns proved themselves over and over when they were state of the art.
The collection of Colts they have is one of the largest collections I have ever seen in one place. There has to literally be hundreds of the old guns. And the majority of them look as if they had just came out of a salesman's trunk. They are absolutely perfect in every way!!!!
Bob mentioned the old Colt Walker.... wasn't that the one that weighed about 9 pounds?:)
I know there's at least one of those huge pistols in their collection and I always marvel at what kind of man carried one of those on his hip.
If that's the one I'm thinking of it dayumed sure wasn't meant for a 5'4" 105 pound cowboy to carry.;)
 
Thanks so far guys, keep it coming. Yvsa, the Walker was a huge pistol and it was originally designed for mounted carry by cavalry troops in a saddle holster. The later Navy in 36. and Army (1860) in .44 were for non mounted troops because the Walker was such a beast. I would not mind any of them. I am not too far from Gettysburg and the battlefeild museum would blow your mind. There is a private Colt museum in town too that is worth the price of admission. Wal, that Ruger looks like a nice piece, but I guess I want something a little more true to the originals in appearance, a reissue or replica. That will work if I can't find a sturdy replica to use. Sarge, you got a website for any of those companies you are talking about? Cowboy Action shooting looks like it might be fun to try. Any official organisations?
 
I've also got the stainless Ruger and it is not only hell-for-strong, but very accurate. I use Wonder Wads and the special .457 Ruger lead balls, so I don't need to put any "bore butter" in the cylinder openings after loading.
 
I guess I want something a little more true to the originals in appearance, a reissue or replica
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Check out Cabela's website - click on "hunting", then "blackpowder pistols". They have replicas of the Remington .44 1858 New Army, Colt .44 1860 Army, and Colt 1851 .36 Navy, all made in Italy by Pietta. Good, functional replicas with a workmanlike finish. Cabela's also has the .44 Colt Walker made by Uberti - nicer finish (real old-time charcoal blue). At 4.5 pounds, it is the 24" Ang Khola of BP revolvers. Other reliable sources of replicas are Dixie Gun Works and Navy Arms, but Cabela's has the best prices on the same pieces. And BP firearms are exempt from the Gun Control Act of 1968, so adults can buy 'em over the Internet and have 'em shipped right to your front door. There ain't nothing legal that's more fun :)!
 
I had a .36 1861 Navy repro by Navy Arms. The old Colt style has a few weaknesses. The spring that works the cylinder stop is prone to breakage, then you have a freewheeling cylinder and a dangerous situation. The sights in the Colts consist of a tiny front and a notch in the front part of the hammer. The fact that the barrel is removed for cleaning and any play in the hammer itself made it pretty inaccurate. Several inches off horizontally and vertically at 15' as I remember. A friend who is really into these said that was a common problem during the war.

My friend has a Ruger and absolutely loves it, but the design isn't authentic. When I asked him what to look for, he advised the Ruger or a Remington design if you want one more authentic.
 
Yvsa - Brother, the cartridge conversion cylinder that I use was made by an outfit called R&D...Brownells usually has them, try a search of their website for "conversion cylinder" and I believe that you will find them in .45 Long Colt caliber. They are not cheap, but they sure do make a C&B revolver more versatile.

There are normally no modifications to the weapon except possible dressing the frame down a mite. The cylinders are advertised a being a "drop-in", and mine certainly was...a couple of licks to a high spot on the frame and I was good to go. The conversion cylinder has a backing plate with individual firing pins - you pull the cylinder, take off the backing plate, insert your cartridges (BP or substitute powder only is recommended), reinsert the cylinder, and you're ready
to go. When you're empty you just pull the cylinder, remove the backing plate, and drop the cartridges. Not a speed load, but with practice it goes faster than you might think. My fiance shoots a Pietta Remington .36 Navy copy with the same type set-up in .38 Special, she loves hers! We get a lot of comments at the loading and unloading tables when we compete with the conversion cylinders! :D

rkenny - Berkley has posted links to those sites, try the one for Navy Arms, click on "Products" and then I believe "Solid Frame Percussion Revolvers" for a picture and description of the R&S. The one shown is blued steel, but you might check with them and see if the "London Grey" finish/model is available if you want a more corrosion resistant finish...I know that the Dixie catalog has listed both finishes from time to time. If you are patient and watch close, R&S reproduction revolvers pop up on the auction sites every now and agan at better prices than you'll find on the various web sites...I picked a blued one up NIB last year for $150.00 for a shootin' pard of mine.
For info on Cowboy Action Shooting, check out wwwSASSnet.com the home of the Single Action Shooting Society. Lots of information and links to other sites there. :)
 
I want to build myself one of those flintlock rifels from one of the bare bones kits. Refinish the wood, do some file work and carvings to it, and maybe take a few deer with it. (I am not sure I could get that close.) That would be fun!

And you could have some sort of side arm made from a kit too! :D

Maybe one day...I have enough work waiting for me as is. ;)
 
you could have some sort of side arm made from a kit too!
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Dave,
Here is a .45 flintlock pistol I built from a kit (with help from BF forumite Waxes Eloquent on the browning and rawhide - a definite change from his usual excellent Concealex sheaths, but he says Concealex and rawhide are both thermoplastic materials:) ). Lots of fun - especially since the kit came with no instructions :rolleyes:
Berk
 
Not that I'm going to go out and buy a can but where does one buy black powder these days? I remember Grand Dad always had a can or tow and 50 or so feet of fuse in his "doghouse" but he got his from local coal mines.
 
Thanks again all. Those Navy and Uberti repros look like what I am going to go for. Not as expensive as I thought either. A kit gun would be cool, but that can wait a while. I should get one already assembled first so I get the idea. Now maybe if we send the parts to the kamis....Just kidding Uncle Bill. A HI Walker by Sanu would definately need a saddle holster.
 
We've got a couple of kamis who can make pistols and shotguns but we would have to ship them in pieces -- separate pieces in separate boxes so we wouldn't get busted either here or there.
 
Uncle Bill:

If the firearms were strictly black powder (either cartridge or muzzle loading) the heavy restrictions would not apply. If, in addition, the guns were replicas of early guns of the area, the collector interest might kick in. Guns from the early Martini big-bores used by the Brits, black-powder doubles (elephant and rhino calibers) and those of earlier vintage would be interesting. During the last Afghan war, there were blacksmiths in Pakistan making working replicas of .303 Enfields and Webley revolvers. These would supposedly stand up to modern smokeless ammo (I'll take someone else's word for this, thanks) and were sold across the border. Remember, however, that liability insurance in that part of the world is a fast horse and relatives who will lie for you (unless they want to keep their thumbs, then get two fast horses).

Black powder is available at most of the gun shops (in areas where BP shooting is popular), or can be ordered. Pyrodex is more modern variant (safer to manufacture and store) and would be my choice. HEHEhheh...A matched pair of .44 Remington Armys, .50 Sharps carbine, Saatisal grips and stocks, HI Scagel Bowie...THE MIND BOGGLES!! Well, it was already boggled, but at least it boggles onward :rolleyes:

Blues - Double check me on this, but shipping firearms in bits and pieces would be "frowned on" (more likely "snarled at") by your brothers on the left coast :eek:
 
Originally posted by SamuraiDave
Wal,
Where did you get that kit? That firearm is beautiful!:eek: :)
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......Unh ???........
 
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