OT fixed blade pattern ancestors

Codger_64

Codger_64

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Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery it is said. In the cutlery world, it is a given that a popular successful blade pattern will be recycled and updated by the original company, as well as copied by other manufacturers.

Sometimes the patterns are acquired by patent licensing, mergers, buyouts etc. Sometimes they are simply appropriated. Recently, with the demise of Schrade, we have seen other companies release adaptations and outright copies of some great old Schrade patterns.

I have been able to identify pattern ancestors for several OT and UH fixed blades (thanks to a nudging from Rich), but I am yet to find one for the 165OT Woodsman, or the 15OT Deerslayer.

Some of the familiar OT patterns have roots in the Schrade 49ers, some in older George Schrade designs, some from Imperial. I think most of the '49ers have Schrade Walden ancestors like the 137 to the 499 and the 147 to the 498.

The 15OT is an obvious ancestor for at least the sweep and choil of the 152OT, and the choil of the 154OT and 158OT. The grip shape and blade angle on the 152OT and 154OT, as I'll show you some day soon, was an earlier Imperial design.

Western is a tempting source, but I think they copied Schrade/Imperial patterns. I could be wrong. Anyone seen a pre-'64 15OT pattern blade or pre '67 165OT pattern blade by another company other than Schrade Walden?

Codger
 
I have the original paperwork ( pats app ) on the 15-OT( some where ) it was a middle sixtys edition and quite inovative. I will try to dig it out. I think my copy is blurred any way. But that particular pattern was a dandy it ( all this is from memory ) was a really new concept. You must really not have much to do if you noticed this since prior to your concern I thought I was the only one in the world who even ever thought of the question. LT PS I will try to find it ( lots of luck )
 
With the correct patent number and date of issuence, could likely dredge up the USPTO file on it and get someone to post it here. The 15OT is one of my favorite all time patterns. I did not even know that Schrade had revived it briefly for a laser cut out DU issue and a few more like the gold filled NRA knife. 33 years of production of the pattern speaks volumns for it's acceptance by the public. A remarkable achievement for any production knife.

Ihave owned and used one for many years. It is an early SCHRADE USA 15OT tangmark with a five rivet stitched sheath. I also have one of the earliest with the SCHRADE-WALDEN over NY USA / 15OT PAT PEND tangmarks with the leather laced tooled leather sheath.

Evidently, early in production it was discovered that the knives tended to eat the laces. This one has the "production running change" quick fix of a fiber insert with a tip wrapping of aluminum to keep the blade from eating the sheath. Then they added six metal eyelets as a sheath blade guard for a more permanent fix. This did away with the tooling to save cost, but kept the leather lace intact. Then they went to a less expensive five rivets and thread stitching with no decorative tooling.

Boring details, but I like digging out the engineering and design changes made over the years. I have found four tangstamps so far, and several different sheath changes. Heck, even the shape of the choil profile changed. Is your blade a ten groove, eleven groove, or twelve groove thumbrest?

Codger Blankmeister
 
I don't know I think if I dug around I would have most of it, all I know is I have, the early editions under Schrade Walden. It was a great sheath. I think I have all the blanks ( cut outs ) ect, a friend was over who does some jewelery for me. I like fancy junk when I play poker. Unlike todays no holdem no brainum players in baseball hats and sweatshirts. I am from the old school fancy bullshit era. Either way cards talk. Any way I gave my friend a few blanks and some Black Walnut even up he gets one I get one. I have another friend who throws the edge on the raw blanks should be interesting. LT
 
Indeed it does! I have a 15OT blade for rescaling (won't attempt it myself) and a block of fancy birdseye redwood lace burl.
And a late blank lacking the polish and final grind, with a block of bigleaf maple burl.

I promise a show-and-tell when/if my ship quits hitting the sand.

I have a Woodsman and Sharpfinger with birdseye maple scales waiting too. I may well be dressing a stevedore in a tuxedo (or pig in a pink tutu, take your pick), but having my own comissioned custom Schrades has been a dream of mine for years. I am not fortunate enough to know former Schrade craftsmen from the knife valley, so my results may not be so grand, but they will be mine and unique.

Codger
 
Knowing you and your interest I am sure they will be fine 50 years difference creates different prioritys. I have all this stuff. In a large house alone, so what can I tell you. I can only wish you well.
 
This is the diagram I mentioned. it is quite useless ( blurred words ) however I believe the date is April 1964. Or 54 I believe 64 is correct, serial number also illegible 81,386 ???? Sorry LT
 
I would think 1964 would be correct, as I have one marked Pat. Pend., and I believe they were released in 1964, so production of blanks from aproximately Nov. '63 to April '64 would be so marked, sold until the initial run was depleted, then the tangstamp changed by grinding the Pat. Pend. lettering off the die for the rest of the Walden production. All educated guesses, but probably close.

This does show an allowed and issued patent, meaning it had no close predecessors, other than the few referenced on the bottom of the sheet. Those referenced patents are given to show how the 15OT design is an improvement to previous designs "as is known in the art" of cutlery design.

Larry (known to some as "Irving"), can you do some pixel magic on the patent sheet text? It is obviously a design patent by the sheet layout, and lack of claim reference numbers. The 1964 Utility patent numbers were up in the 3 million number range.

Thanks LT! Did you stay up all night digging for that sheet? I hope not!

Codger
 
Fascinating thread. Very. But I have nothing of interest to add, except this:

I don't 'see' you two in the other forums here.. but it doesn't take long visiting them to see how short a life (production life) most newer knives have. The current buying public grows bored very quickly. You can read older threads concerning the lastest 'must have' knives from relatively new companies, and months later, those are old hat.. something much, much better has come along and everyone MUST have one of them. The old 'must have' ends up in the trade - exchange forums.

Past of the current Schrade craziness on Ebay is due to the increased collecitibility; But I think much of it is also guys wanting to make sure they have enough Sharpfingers and such to last them and thiers for a long time.

Phil
 
All very relevant Phil. What you mention is part of the fuel that ran the train of Schrade into the ground. Just look at all the design changes and new models introduced each year from 1999 through 2004. Designs that were unique enough to catch the eye, but in the end, not enough to hold a buying public's attention. Schrade had low production patterns in the late seventies through early eighties, such as the 13OT,14OT, 41OT but they had some enduring Old Timer fixed patterns as well.

I surf the other forums from time to time. My main interest is fixed blade knives in traditional patterns. Even Schrade's "space debris", as I call it, interests me only from the perspective of their last attempts at survival.

I agree the buying public's attention span is short. And cutlers are under pressure to come up with the next fad knife. An intrigueing eye catcher that will flame out in a year or two as buyers turn their attention to the next sharpened oddity.

I do not expect to see any of the other manufacturer's patterns survive the twenty five, thirty years that some of the Old Timers have. OK, concessions to Buck and Camillus, Western, and a few more, but for the most part the new patterns are flashes in the pan.

Codger
 
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