- Joined
- Aug 6, 2002
- Messages
- 746
I typed this up because it's an important thing in my life and I think it would be neat to read and comment on. Whether you see yourself in the text or not, I hope reading this viewpoint is entertaining, because it's LONNNG! It's a little bit to do with the balance that Kismet mentioned.
Also this is MY thread and I want the discussion to be civil, respectful, and loving even if it is about religion.
I'm hoping to get something out of it, of course, but I'm also hoping that it's constructive on the whole.
I hope this will be rewarding!
Introduction
The last few years Ive been growing in many ways that seem to make people uncomfortable. There have been many heart to heart conversations with people that I respect, and quite a few books and websites read. I feel that overall I have grown from this.
Background
To start at the start, I am the firstborn son in a long line of devout Dutch Reformed Christians. I was born into the Christian church and I grew up in it, going to hear sermons twice every Sunday for the first 33 years of my life. I believed everything that was preached off the pulpit as fact. We hold the Bible to be the only book that God himself wrote and every word to be in it as absolutely true. It is the Infallible Word of God. The argument is that if we doubt some of its veracity, then we might as well throw the whole thing out because our faith is baseless. In short, six day creation is fact. Noah and the ark with water covering the entire globe, the ten plagues, Daniel and his men in the furnace are all absolutely true.
Other themes that have prevailed over me during this time of growth in Christ:
We are nothing but sinners without the saving blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The fact that we are worthless without him has been pressed into me many times. The last guy to say this, as he angrily and powerfully hammered away at the pulpit, was a minister from the Theological College. It was obvious that he was high on the saving power of the Holy Spirit.
We were chosen before the beginning of time to be with Christ and we should just rejoice that the Lord has called us chosen few to be with him
Discussion
Being trained as a scientist to be of a skeptical mindset, I began to question what I was being taught. I remembered being told as a boy that numbers in the old testament were messed up. When they said 60,000 they likely meant 6,000. Then I read conflicting accounts in Genesis, and saw that in one place Judas threw himself headlong in a field and died, and in another he hung himself. How can people say that the Bible is the absolute truth when the numbers are wrong and it contradicts itself in places? Also, who put this thing together from all the component books after Christ died/resurrected?
Then I read other passages. Lo, I have chosen you before the beginning of time. And, Behold, I stand at the door and knock: Whoever opens it for me I will come in and sit with him.. So which is it? Did Christ choose me or do I have to choose Christ?
Lately Ive been at odds with some of the things that Ive been told I have to believe to go to heaven. I no longer believe that the Bible is infallible, because men have mistranslated it and the numbers are wrong and Judas Iscariot died two different ways.. In fact I think Paul was kind of an opinionated extremist, and if Christ were around at the time, he would have told Paul to shut up on occasion. After all, the apostles got the wrong ideas quite a bit when they were following Christ, and he had to slap them down a lot. The flames of the Pentecost may have allowed them to communicate better, but I wonder if it made their message perfect?
My direct ancestors fought for religious freedom from Spanish persecution in Holland, were partially responsible for the Dutch Declaration of Independence and indirectly responsible for the American Revolution and the US Declaration of Independence that followed. We all fought for freedom. Why then am I being told that its my Christian Duty to vote for a Christian political party. Do we not still want freedom to practice our faith in the manner of our choosing? This is nothing short of hypocrisy. In my view, if I am allowed to practice my faith in safety, then gays who dont believe what I do should be allowed to do what they want in their churches. This may stop short of the killing involved with abortion though. If I am to have religious freedom, then so should everyone else. Its only fair?
And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. The only ordinary man that ever walked alongside God did nothing more than believe Him and love him. Has the bar been raised for entry into Gods friendship now? Also, did God choose from Abraham to believe Him or did Abraham do that?
If not one hair can fall from our heads without the will of the Holy Spirit, then we have no choice in the matter of being Gods friends or not. If then we dont have a choice, then what was the whole deal with the Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL? Obviously God meant for us to know the difference by eating from that tree. If we didnt eat from the tree, then we would be Gods robots and wouldnt know what Good was. Or evil. Also, if eating from it was a sin, and we didnt know good or evil until we ate from the tree, then did God cause original sin by planning for us to screw up? It seems that God meant for us to know the difference: to have a choice as to what path we would like to take.
If God chooses me before the beginning of time, then why should I be afraid of losing my faith? Perhaps by losing all the inconsistencies of Christian doctrines and concentrating on the basics, I am gaining true faith? Isnt being afraid to lose your faith an oxymoron? If you have faith, you are by definition not afraid. If instead, I choose God, then I could be afraid. Then I could unchoose Him and heaven and hell could exist again as dangers for me. If I choose and I choose to follow Christs example of love and mercy and compassion, then I shouldnt worry about losing my faith. If God chooses, then how can I doubt Gods ability to put me in heaven. Its arrogant to think that I could stop God from choosing me.
So why all the hedging? The Bible is perfect but there are errors in it. You let Christ in, but you didnt have any choice in the matter, so you should be thankful that God chose you, but watch out or you might lose your faith. We want freedom of religion but vote for the Christian Heritage Party. All of creation groans under the burden of original sin; that God gave us a choice to have faith in Him or not.
In the end of all this spinning around, I am left with a few things that Christ said that ring true through all of the centuries of bickering and persecution.
I desire mercy, not sacrifice. He said this twice and asked people why the heck they didnt listen to him the first time he said it. Then we went through centuries of monasteries and nunneries and depriving ourselves physically and mentally for the sake of our Dear Lord. We still havent listened. We still ship ourselves off to Our Lady of the Eternal Weeping Misery to blubber away before our God about what pathetic losers we would be without him. We wouldnt even BE without Him so in my view, its pointless to do that. Were supposed to be thankful, not wretched.
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important commandment," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Jesus thought that consuming love for God, our neighbour and ourselves most important of all in life. Important beyond sacrifice. The Jewish teacher already knew this and Christ was preaching nothing new.
Problems
Why do my parents continually ask me if I am still going to Church? They fear that I am falling away from the faith and doing what is convenient instead of what I am supposed to. They view being in Church as the most essential part of being Christian. If I stop attending Church then I am falling away from the Lord. Every time they see me they say that I am on a slippery slope and that Satan is trying to trick me. I should go to Church even when I dont feel like it.
They havent asked me what Ive learned on the path of my life. They only want to know that I am going to the same Church that they do and that I practice my faith in the same manner they do. Shouldnt they be asking me what I have found? Shouldnt they have some regard for my ability to discern? They have never once asked me for my opinion on religious matters. I believe this is because our opinions are usually handed to us and were not encouraged to question them. Im told in church that its healthy to dig in and study and that one should ponder the face of God and the bible. But when I come up with questions Im told that I shouldnt doubt Gods perfect Word. So we can study but never question veracity. Nice.
My parents are not curious as to what kind of man I have grown into. They only want to know that I am going to a Reformed church twice every Sunday, and that I still believe everything in the Bible and the Psalm book that explains our doctrines. When I admit that I am bored of hearing the same things Ive heard for 25 years, and Im on kind of a sabbatical, Im told that Satan could be deceiving me and that I shouldnt trust myself so much. My mother even said, Try not to think so much.. The weird thing is that I trust God to do whatever He needs me to do and that I am on the path of His making. So I trust myself because God guides my feet and my mind wherever I am going. I am striking out for love and mercy, not sacrifice. How could God deny me? "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
I am feeling the pressure of friends and family who want me to get back to the spiritual place I came from. However I dont want to go back: I was not happy in that black and white, fearful world of certainty. Now I feel the beginnings of happiness and I want to continue this path as far as it takes me.
If I acquiesce to the pressure, then have I really chosen God and faith and belief? Or have my parents chosen for me? If then my parents choose for me, will Christ come in and sit with me because my parents somehow opened the door? I thought that was my job. If I surrender to my parents do I surrender to Christ as well? Is Christ to be surrendered to or welcomed? Where is my religious freedom? When does respecting your parents get trumped by respecting yourself?
So as it stands, there could be a lot of heartache and misunderstanding in my life or theirs or both in the near future, because I am ready to tell everyone to back off and let me choose my path for myself. I have had that God-given responsibility from the beginning, with that tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil thingy, and no-one can make that choice for my heart. I have lost some faith to be sure: I have lost faith in the Bible and in the Church. I have lost faith in anyone who would have me conduct myself a certain way. I sometimes see the motives behind peoples actions. Some motives are pure, others are not. My parents have told me that I see too many designs behind social constructs. Too many plots and too much complication. I see quantum physics and microchips. Social engineering, psychology and marketing spin are quite simple compared to many of the machines we have control over.
Have I lost faith in God? I dont know. I guess I trust, and have always trusted, that Hell put me wherever he thinks is best for His plans. Sometimes Ive doubted, but Im only human. Just like everyone else, I have a value of one.
Conclusions
Im weary of advances made by well-meaning fearful people. I'll walk with God and it will be reckoned to me as righteousness, if He will have me. I wont sacrifice my happiness, but I will show mercy. I will strive to love my God, my neighbour and myself. I repeat the last part because I dont think people pay any attention to it: I will love myself. I have a right to.
I am now both on the path of Christ and that of Dharma at once. I am beginning to show myself compassion, and the fruit of that is beginning to extend to others. I am content to admit that some of the things our Church practices may be entirely wrong, but that doesnt cause me any alarm. I am content to know that the truth is the truth even if no one knows it. For the first time in my life I have clarity about who I am and what I want to be. There is Joy in my soul and I love me, and others around me.
I think the end of the matter, if you classify yourself as Christian, is to walk with God by learning to love your creator, your fellows and yourself, showing mercy and compassion to everyone. Its that simple. A tough road, but simple. Christ already did the hardest part in freeing us up to follow it. I have found that karma and dharma are very useful tools to practice this sort of a faith for me. If God and Christ exist, then I am doing the right thing. If they dont exist, then I am doing a positive thing.
Bhuddism as talked about by the Dalai Lama seems less of a religion and more of a practical way of bettering ones self and others by showing compassion and love. I see much of it as a good methodology for practicing Christian principles.
So, would my parents disown me and my Church excommunicate me for my beliefs? I'm not sure.
Fin.
Also this is MY thread and I want the discussion to be civil, respectful, and loving even if it is about religion.
I'm hoping to get something out of it, of course, but I'm also hoping that it's constructive on the whole. I hope this will be rewarding!
Introduction
The last few years Ive been growing in many ways that seem to make people uncomfortable. There have been many heart to heart conversations with people that I respect, and quite a few books and websites read. I feel that overall I have grown from this.
Background
To start at the start, I am the firstborn son in a long line of devout Dutch Reformed Christians. I was born into the Christian church and I grew up in it, going to hear sermons twice every Sunday for the first 33 years of my life. I believed everything that was preached off the pulpit as fact. We hold the Bible to be the only book that God himself wrote and every word to be in it as absolutely true. It is the Infallible Word of God. The argument is that if we doubt some of its veracity, then we might as well throw the whole thing out because our faith is baseless. In short, six day creation is fact. Noah and the ark with water covering the entire globe, the ten plagues, Daniel and his men in the furnace are all absolutely true.
Other themes that have prevailed over me during this time of growth in Christ:
We are nothing but sinners without the saving blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The fact that we are worthless without him has been pressed into me many times. The last guy to say this, as he angrily and powerfully hammered away at the pulpit, was a minister from the Theological College. It was obvious that he was high on the saving power of the Holy Spirit.
We were chosen before the beginning of time to be with Christ and we should just rejoice that the Lord has called us chosen few to be with him
Discussion
Being trained as a scientist to be of a skeptical mindset, I began to question what I was being taught. I remembered being told as a boy that numbers in the old testament were messed up. When they said 60,000 they likely meant 6,000. Then I read conflicting accounts in Genesis, and saw that in one place Judas threw himself headlong in a field and died, and in another he hung himself. How can people say that the Bible is the absolute truth when the numbers are wrong and it contradicts itself in places? Also, who put this thing together from all the component books after Christ died/resurrected?
Then I read other passages. Lo, I have chosen you before the beginning of time. And, Behold, I stand at the door and knock: Whoever opens it for me I will come in and sit with him.. So which is it? Did Christ choose me or do I have to choose Christ?
Lately Ive been at odds with some of the things that Ive been told I have to believe to go to heaven. I no longer believe that the Bible is infallible, because men have mistranslated it and the numbers are wrong and Judas Iscariot died two different ways.. In fact I think Paul was kind of an opinionated extremist, and if Christ were around at the time, he would have told Paul to shut up on occasion. After all, the apostles got the wrong ideas quite a bit when they were following Christ, and he had to slap them down a lot. The flames of the Pentecost may have allowed them to communicate better, but I wonder if it made their message perfect?
My direct ancestors fought for religious freedom from Spanish persecution in Holland, were partially responsible for the Dutch Declaration of Independence and indirectly responsible for the American Revolution and the US Declaration of Independence that followed. We all fought for freedom. Why then am I being told that its my Christian Duty to vote for a Christian political party. Do we not still want freedom to practice our faith in the manner of our choosing? This is nothing short of hypocrisy. In my view, if I am allowed to practice my faith in safety, then gays who dont believe what I do should be allowed to do what they want in their churches. This may stop short of the killing involved with abortion though. If I am to have religious freedom, then so should everyone else. Its only fair?
And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. The only ordinary man that ever walked alongside God did nothing more than believe Him and love him. Has the bar been raised for entry into Gods friendship now? Also, did God choose from Abraham to believe Him or did Abraham do that?
If not one hair can fall from our heads without the will of the Holy Spirit, then we have no choice in the matter of being Gods friends or not. If then we dont have a choice, then what was the whole deal with the Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL? Obviously God meant for us to know the difference by eating from that tree. If we didnt eat from the tree, then we would be Gods robots and wouldnt know what Good was. Or evil. Also, if eating from it was a sin, and we didnt know good or evil until we ate from the tree, then did God cause original sin by planning for us to screw up? It seems that God meant for us to know the difference: to have a choice as to what path we would like to take.
If God chooses me before the beginning of time, then why should I be afraid of losing my faith? Perhaps by losing all the inconsistencies of Christian doctrines and concentrating on the basics, I am gaining true faith? Isnt being afraid to lose your faith an oxymoron? If you have faith, you are by definition not afraid. If instead, I choose God, then I could be afraid. Then I could unchoose Him and heaven and hell could exist again as dangers for me. If I choose and I choose to follow Christs example of love and mercy and compassion, then I shouldnt worry about losing my faith. If God chooses, then how can I doubt Gods ability to put me in heaven. Its arrogant to think that I could stop God from choosing me.
So why all the hedging? The Bible is perfect but there are errors in it. You let Christ in, but you didnt have any choice in the matter, so you should be thankful that God chose you, but watch out or you might lose your faith. We want freedom of religion but vote for the Christian Heritage Party. All of creation groans under the burden of original sin; that God gave us a choice to have faith in Him or not.
In the end of all this spinning around, I am left with a few things that Christ said that ring true through all of the centuries of bickering and persecution.
I desire mercy, not sacrifice. He said this twice and asked people why the heck they didnt listen to him the first time he said it. Then we went through centuries of monasteries and nunneries and depriving ourselves physically and mentally for the sake of our Dear Lord. We still havent listened. We still ship ourselves off to Our Lady of the Eternal Weeping Misery to blubber away before our God about what pathetic losers we would be without him. We wouldnt even BE without Him so in my view, its pointless to do that. Were supposed to be thankful, not wretched.
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important commandment," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Jesus thought that consuming love for God, our neighbour and ourselves most important of all in life. Important beyond sacrifice. The Jewish teacher already knew this and Christ was preaching nothing new.
Problems
Why do my parents continually ask me if I am still going to Church? They fear that I am falling away from the faith and doing what is convenient instead of what I am supposed to. They view being in Church as the most essential part of being Christian. If I stop attending Church then I am falling away from the Lord. Every time they see me they say that I am on a slippery slope and that Satan is trying to trick me. I should go to Church even when I dont feel like it.
They havent asked me what Ive learned on the path of my life. They only want to know that I am going to the same Church that they do and that I practice my faith in the same manner they do. Shouldnt they be asking me what I have found? Shouldnt they have some regard for my ability to discern? They have never once asked me for my opinion on religious matters. I believe this is because our opinions are usually handed to us and were not encouraged to question them. Im told in church that its healthy to dig in and study and that one should ponder the face of God and the bible. But when I come up with questions Im told that I shouldnt doubt Gods perfect Word. So we can study but never question veracity. Nice.
My parents are not curious as to what kind of man I have grown into. They only want to know that I am going to a Reformed church twice every Sunday, and that I still believe everything in the Bible and the Psalm book that explains our doctrines. When I admit that I am bored of hearing the same things Ive heard for 25 years, and Im on kind of a sabbatical, Im told that Satan could be deceiving me and that I shouldnt trust myself so much. My mother even said, Try not to think so much.. The weird thing is that I trust God to do whatever He needs me to do and that I am on the path of His making. So I trust myself because God guides my feet and my mind wherever I am going. I am striking out for love and mercy, not sacrifice. How could God deny me? "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
I am feeling the pressure of friends and family who want me to get back to the spiritual place I came from. However I dont want to go back: I was not happy in that black and white, fearful world of certainty. Now I feel the beginnings of happiness and I want to continue this path as far as it takes me.
If I acquiesce to the pressure, then have I really chosen God and faith and belief? Or have my parents chosen for me? If then my parents choose for me, will Christ come in and sit with me because my parents somehow opened the door? I thought that was my job. If I surrender to my parents do I surrender to Christ as well? Is Christ to be surrendered to or welcomed? Where is my religious freedom? When does respecting your parents get trumped by respecting yourself?
So as it stands, there could be a lot of heartache and misunderstanding in my life or theirs or both in the near future, because I am ready to tell everyone to back off and let me choose my path for myself. I have had that God-given responsibility from the beginning, with that tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil thingy, and no-one can make that choice for my heart. I have lost some faith to be sure: I have lost faith in the Bible and in the Church. I have lost faith in anyone who would have me conduct myself a certain way. I sometimes see the motives behind peoples actions. Some motives are pure, others are not. My parents have told me that I see too many designs behind social constructs. Too many plots and too much complication. I see quantum physics and microchips. Social engineering, psychology and marketing spin are quite simple compared to many of the machines we have control over.
Have I lost faith in God? I dont know. I guess I trust, and have always trusted, that Hell put me wherever he thinks is best for His plans. Sometimes Ive doubted, but Im only human. Just like everyone else, I have a value of one.
Conclusions
Im weary of advances made by well-meaning fearful people. I'll walk with God and it will be reckoned to me as righteousness, if He will have me. I wont sacrifice my happiness, but I will show mercy. I will strive to love my God, my neighbour and myself. I repeat the last part because I dont think people pay any attention to it: I will love myself. I have a right to.
I am now both on the path of Christ and that of Dharma at once. I am beginning to show myself compassion, and the fruit of that is beginning to extend to others. I am content to admit that some of the things our Church practices may be entirely wrong, but that doesnt cause me any alarm. I am content to know that the truth is the truth even if no one knows it. For the first time in my life I have clarity about who I am and what I want to be. There is Joy in my soul and I love me, and others around me.
I think the end of the matter, if you classify yourself as Christian, is to walk with God by learning to love your creator, your fellows and yourself, showing mercy and compassion to everyone. Its that simple. A tough road, but simple. Christ already did the hardest part in freeing us up to follow it. I have found that karma and dharma are very useful tools to practice this sort of a faith for me. If God and Christ exist, then I am doing the right thing. If they dont exist, then I am doing a positive thing.
Bhuddism as talked about by the Dalai Lama seems less of a religion and more of a practical way of bettering ones self and others by showing compassion and love. I see much of it as a good methodology for practicing Christian principles.
So, would my parents disown me and my Church excommunicate me for my beliefs? I'm not sure.
Fin.
More spirituality and seeing the common denominator of all religions is needed.
