OT: M43, plus one

Aardvark

Aardvark

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(Subtitled, "Hollowdweller, this is all your fault.")

No, this is not a post about an M43 variation.

A while back, this thread, titled "OT M38" was started:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365225

Well, about 3 weeks ago, Big 5 had M44's on sale for $69, and I thought, "I can either take the family out to dinner, or I can buy a rifle.". Hmmm. Ok, I wasn't hungry at the that moment, so I opted for the rifle.

For those of you unfamiliar with the gun, it's a Russian carbine that fires a 7.62 x 54R round, roughly equivalent to a .30-06. Pretty nice picture, here:

http://www.courter.org/guns/rifles/m44.html

Did about every wrong that I could: didn't check the barrel (wouldn't know a worn one from factory-new), didn't check for matching serial numbers, etc, etc. Spent the 10 day waiting period reading up on the gun, and its relatives, as well as basic "how to shoot" stuff.

If it isn't obvious by now, this is my first gun. Yeah, I fired the obligatory Colt Woodsman in high school at a friend's ranch (he had a cool 25-35 with an octagonal barrel, and we fired that, too), but I know less about firearms than I know about khuks.

Guess I got lucky. When I knew enough to check the serials, all 4 match: bolt, barrel, magazine, and buttplate. Still not sure why they serialized buttplates.

Took it out today and put about 75 rounds through it. First time at a firing range. SUPER nice people. They didn't laugh too loudly. 'Course, with the ear protection, they MAY have been doing hyena impressions, and I wouldn't have noticed.

First thing I did wrong was to try to load it from the bottom. Needless to say, it didn't feed too well. They helped me through that one.

The first shot was not as startling as I had expected, neither from a noise nor from a recoil standpoint. (I was to change my mind about the recoil after about 50 shots). I had put the target out to 50 yards, which was a trifle optimistic, and I fired standing up, no support. Not exactly sure where that one went. Turns out, I can't see small holes in a piece of paper at 50 yards. Had often wondered why people bought spotting telescopes.

If you've watched Satori's (sorry, Dave Rishar's) M38 video, you have some idea that the gun is loud. Yeah, it is. I can't even imagine what it would sound like at an indoor range. The safety officers said it has a muzzle flash that's about a foot long. Wish I could have seen it.

Succeeding shots were taken in the sitting position. I had been smart enough to bring a pair of binoculars, and discovered that either the rifle or I were shooting low and to the left (I'm still not sure which of us it is).

I had shot maybe 10 rounds when one of the range safety officers asked me, very politely, what the reason was that I wasn't using blocks and sandbags. I, just as politely, said it was because I had no idea what he was talking about. So, he set me up with blocks and sandbags. All of a sudden, the word "grouping" had some meaning.

During one of the target checks, I had moved the target back to 25 yards, because I really couldn't see what was happening, even with the binocs. Still shooting to the left. So, I adjusted the diaper... Oh, I didn't tell you about that, did I? Sometime, very early this morning, I woke up, very nervous about this whole endeavor. Here I was, going to do something completely new, not knowing anything about it, by myself, with an OLD rifle that may or may not blow up on the first shot (oh, they SAID they had checked it...). Hell, I didn't even know how one attached the target to whatever it was targets got attached to! So, I was laying there, think about how the weather was going to be (turned out to be the most perfect fall day you've ever seen), how I was going to dress, etc. Dress, for me, is which pair of shorts and which t-shirt. t-shirt = thin cotton thing. Everything I had read about this gun said it kicked like a mule. So, before I left this morning, I grabbed onle of those old, thick cotton diapers, and used it under my shirt for a recoil pad. Highly recommend it as a spur-of-the-moment shooting pad.

Nevertheless, I am going to be VERY sore tomorrow. Probably 75 rounds was too much for a first attempt, but I was having too much fun to quit.

Enjoyed cleaning the gun afterwards, too. Not sure if that's normal.

Anyway, today was fantastic. I'm pretty sure that I've found a new (expensive) hobby. I met a lot of really nice people, both at the range, and at the gun store.

Hollowdweller, feel free to send periodic donations to my gun fund, since you tipped me over the edge on this one.

One of the coolest things about this gun is, it has a wooden stock that just cries out for woodchucking. It is going to look SO great refinished with 20 coats of Tru-Oil! Only 'problem' is, that's going to mean a lot of down-time for that gun. Guess I'll just have to get another.
 
Sounds like you had fun, Aa. The Curio & Relic guns seem like great deals. I heard that Nagant kicks somewhat.... thinking about getting one of the many Mauser 8mm rifles out there for cheap. Quality bolt, accurate, well made. Of course, it may have been dropped, as the previous owner of the Mauser might have been shot by the previous owner of your Nagant. Or vice versa.

Welcome to milsurp shooting! Consider also a Yugo 59/66 SKS carbine. Also cheap & well made, fires 7.62x39 ammo, cheap and low recoil.


Ad Astra
 
I don't find the recoil to be too bad on them but I think that getting kicked is half mental, if not more - make up your mind that you're going to get kicked whether you hit or miss, make the choice to hit, and focus on the act of aiming and shooting. You'll find that unless you're firing a real cannon you'll be so busy with everything else that you won't even remember the recoil.

If you overdo it, you will remember the next morning when you see the bruise. :)

Seek qualified instruction on the fundamentals of shooting. One can learn to shoot accurately without them but the basics are necessary to reach your maximum potential. The longer that you go without qualified instruction, the longer it will take for you to break your bad habits when you get some. ;)

Your M44 should have been sighted in at the arsenal with the bayonet extended. The next time you shoot, try locking the bayonet out first. It will raise some eyebrows but that might be the problem. Folding the bayonet will change the barrel's harmonics considerably and will most likely shift the POI a bit.

If you were shooting it with the bayonet extended, try it folded. If you did both (or the bayonet has been removed) forget what I said.

As for the barrel...with the rifle disassembled, point the barrel at a strong light and peer through it from the breech. It should appear smooth and somewhat shiny. The most likely problem that you'll see in a weapon of this vintage is either "frosting" (looks just like it sounds) or actual pitting. Both are caused by (among other things) shooting corrosive ammunition and not cleaning the residue out properly. Either may or may not affect accuracy. I've seen sewer pipes that're accurate and I've also seen minty bores that were worthless, so don't let it scare you if it's there. Also check the muzzle for obvious damage. If both the muzzle and the bore look good, it will probably shoot well.

Along the same lines, if you're shooting corrosive ammunition be sure to clean up properly afterwards. If you don't know if the ammo is corrosive or not, it's corrosive.

Did it come with a combination tool? If it didn't, purchase one and learn how to check and adjust your firing pin protrusion. It's important. If the rear of the firing pin is flush with the rear of the bolt and the witness marks are aligned, it's should be (but may not be) adjusted properly.

There are various resources (and philosophies) dealing with how to refurb a stock available on the internet. Don't be alarmed by purists screaming for an "authentic" treatment. These rifles aren't exactly scarce and, more importantly, this one is yours. Some actually look quite nice after staining and a few (dozen) coats of oil.

Mosin-Nagants rock. Be careful, though - you're flirting with MNRV (Mosin-Nagant Rifle Virus) by purchasing one. Between the different nations that produced them, and the various models, and the (usually) very low cost of owning and maintaining one, you may soon find yourself with five or six of them.

Have fun with your rifle.
 
Mosin-Nagants rock. Be careful, though - you're flirting with MNRV (Mosin-Nagant Rifle Virus) by purchasing one. Between the different nations that produced them, and the various models, and the (usually) very low cost of owning and maintaining one, you may soon find yourself with five or six of them.
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I'm very much afraid that it's gone past flirting, and has gotten down to a serious courtship. I've loved guns, especially rifles, as precision machines for most of my life.
It's a tool that I hope I'll never NEED, but I'd rather be ready. And besides, they're fun.

I'm already considering becoming a member of the gun club where I shot today. Seems like a great place, and they require member participation (some kind of helping out for 20 hours). The thing that REALLY caught my eye, though, was:
You can purchase items through the club for your own use with the club's FFL
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This is really dangerous. I already love all of the M-N models (especially the long ones), and then there's the K31, the Mausers, and, and, and... There's just something about the old bolt actions.

I'll check out the SKS, too.

Dave, I appreciate the advice. I was definitely going to get instruction for my son (he's 12) and buy him a trainer (.22, bolt action). Wasn't sure about getting the instruction for myself, but I'll do it, based on your suggestion. I found myself wondering whether I was closing my eyes after I pulled the trigger. Everything happens so fast...

The barrel looks pretty shiny, to my untrained eye.

The combination tool is present, and there are a couple of VERY good internet sites about maintaining the beast.

The action on that thing is STIFF! After it heated up a little, it almost took 2 hands to eject the spent shell. Not sure if that'll get smoother with use.

I had read about shooting with the bayonet extended, but I didn't want to look too weird on my first day. I mean, the diaper was about the limit, don't you think?

I'm definitely going to treat the ammo as corrosive. Running a swab or 2 soaked in ammonia isn't that much more work.

Next, I guess, is replacing the bayonet with one of my khuks. That would pretty much complete the cycle. And get me committed.
 
don't fergit to save your brass. if it has berdan primers (look inside & if it has two holes instead of one central hole) you''re stuffed (makes it very hard to get out the old primer), but if one hole, they're reloadable & with a bit of extra infection, and a few hundred dollars worth of new kit to treat the symptoms, you can progress to the next stage of the virus & reload your own - 'to save money'. if you do, don't EVER be tempted to put in 'just a bit more' powder - it could make your shiny riffle fly into tiny pieces aimed at YOU. (and kick like a SOB). best get some instruction at the 'club' - should be plenty of folkes at the range who would be glad to help.
 
That sounds like sooo much fun! I wish we had a range close by. I've got a Cetme that I've never shot. (impulse buy at the gunshow)

The old bolt actions are just too cool. Congrats!

Steve
 
Mosin is fine, altough shooting it standing unsuported can be difficult as it has some hanshock.

Its one of first rifles with floating barrel altough very little people knows it, it can be tuned for accuracy.
On front wooden block there are two screws, which you can tighten or loose, these are atached to kind of metal blocks inside of stock on which support the barrel.

It wil probably never make 1/2 MOA rifle, but 3/4 was reported without tunning and with surplus ammo. Means it can be pushed even bit further.

Man has to be tolerant to the level of handiwork as majority of WW2 rifles was made by kids and women, mostly on freezing open ground of Ural. But the steel is superior to anything on surplus army rifles and the action is pretty strong. Remember they used one cartridge for rifles and for machineguns.

If you wish you can delaborate the cartridges for somehow weaker target round, for plinking just about 2/3 of current ammount of powder is more than enough.

Jaroslav
 
I'm afraid that reloading has already crossed my mind. Exactly the type of tinkering I like to do.

Steve, I did a Google search on 'Cetme' and came up with a company that makes electric stretch testers for stockings. Can't you stop thinking about work for even a minute??

Hawkwind, that accuracy tuning is interesting. I'll take a look at the gun tonight. What kind of adjustment does it make when the screws are turned (side-to-side, top-to-bottom)? Thanks.
 
That cant be said for sure as it differs for each gun. But either way you make the barrell vibrate more, other way less. Each can be observable on your groups. I think one affect horizontal spread, other vertical. Its some time I played with this.
If you want to play this game, you might also take a look at the end of the barrel. Quite often this very end of bore is destroyed by blast and corroded ,which bugs on accuracy. Any gunsmith will cut it new so that the rifling and bore has edge to the front of the barell. Different angles are used for different munition, but professionall will say.

The tuning of the barrel beding with the screws and repair of the end of the barrel is the least you can do without completelly sporterising the weapon.

Warning - mosin is difficult to sporterise with any good results as the specialty of the barrel bed.

The russian approach fr accuracy with regards of barrel vibrating is different that of western.
Western approach goes towards heavy barrels and floating bed.
Russians utilize the rifle to resonate complex with barrel.

E.G. SKS with atached and erected bayonet is reasonably more accurate than the same rifle without it.

Have a fun!
Jaroslav
 
Thanks, Hawkwind.

I'm going to learn how to shoot correctly before I start doing any adjustment at all to the gun. It may be perfect now, and it's just the shooter who has the problem.

As of now, I have no interest in sporterising the weapon; I like the idea that it's authentic.
 
Aardvark said:
I'm afraid that reloading has already crossed my mind. Exactly the type of tinkering I like to do.

Steve, I did a Google search on 'Cetme' and came up with a company that makes electric stretch testers for stockings. Can't you stop thinking about work for even a minute??
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Heck Aardvark, I'm AT work and not thinking about it. :D

Is it possible to get the old Mosin and Swiss rifles mail order or do they need to go through a FFL?

Steve

Here's a Spanish Cetme. .308 cal. semi auto
 

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Email sent on the Cetme! Nice looking gun, Steve.

As far as I have seen, an FFL is required.
 
Aardvark said:
Email sent on the Cetme! Nice looking gun, Steve.

As far as I have seen, an FFL is required.
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Forget it Aardvark! I've been after a metric or inch pattern FN-FAL variant for years. We can't own them here in the PRK. After all, we have the police! Why would you want a death-weapon like that anyway!? :D

You would need an FFL transfer for sure Steve. The mail order days are long gone.

Thanks for the info on the cool 7.62 X 54. The stock is what I would go after as well. There is some nice wood grain hidden under some of those old stocks.

WRT recoil, I remember the first time I fired a 10 ga. mag out of an old Ithaca "Roadblocker" autoloading shotgun. I was shooting the 3.5" mags with buffered BB loads, and blowing up old cars very nicely. I fired 50 rounds, and the next day my shoulder and upper arm were not black and blue, or even red and blue, but just yellow and blue. I hammered my shoulder so bad that it looked like fresh fish of some kind.

I have a 28" 12 ga. Browning Citori Special Sporting that I can shoot all day in a tee-shirt and it doesn't hit as hard as one session with that beast. I finally sold it to a guy who wanted the ultimate defense shotgun, which I guess it would qualify for as you could shoot four 10 ga. mags as fast as you could pull the trigger. I'd hate to be downrange of it.

Remington bought the patent from Ithaca and reworked it a bit and came out with the Remington SP-10 Turkey gun. They did a way with the 22" version though, that had been targeted to law enforcement. The latest versions I've seen are long barrelled for that sport and all camoed out.

Please let us know how your stock efforts with the rifle go. That is one hell of a deal at Big 5 for sure.

Regards,

Norm
 
The action on that thing is STIFF! After it heated up a little, it almost took 2 hands to eject the spent shell. Not sure if that'll get smoother with use.


This issue is related to ammo. The Czech ammo with a lacquered case seems to be the worst for this,but is also the most widely available. I've never observed this happening with the Hungarian ammo, and it also seems to shoot the best in both of my rifles. Give the bolt handle a smack with the heel of your hand.

My favorite Mosin is my 91/59. These rifles began life as a full size 91/30 and were converted to carbines beginning in 1959. No one seems to know what their intended purpose was. The 91/59 is about the length of an M44,bur it's a little heavier. The end result is a great handling, VERY POWERFUL little carbine.

Trust me,you will buy more of these rifles!
 
Stilgar, I'm pretty sure I'll be getting both of the 91/x versions, as well as (perhaps the M38). I have no idea where the ammunition I fired is from. I'll keep an eye out for the Hungarian. There seem to be several suppliers with decent prices out there: PolyGunGag and AIMSurplus. At least, until you factor in the shipping.

JN44: funny, that's pretty much the conclusion I had come to. Appreciate that the buttplate (pun??) was left showing, so I could check the s/n.

Norm, I feel so much safter that I'm not allowed (and therefore, no one else can have) to own such an implement of Satan. Umm, I take it that the Cetme is one of those things you described. Newbie, here.
 
Steve, please pursue what I say further, but I believe that any firearm that can be proven to have been manufactured BEFORE 1898 is concidered an antique and does not fall under federal laws considering cartridge firearms. This means that conceivibly it could be ordered mail order with no strings attached. This said, this is what the federal government says ~ state and local laws may be more restrictive. Some Mosin 91, some older Mausers (Swede 96 and some Argentinian, etc) would fit this bill. You will pay a premium, though, for guns that fit the bill.

Hope this was helpful,
stevo
 
stilgar said:
My favorite Mosin is my 91/59. These rifles began life as a full size 91/30 and were converted to carbines beginning in 1959. No one seems to know what their intended purpose was. The 91/59 is about the length of an M44,bur it's a little heavier. The end result is a great handling, VERY POWERFUL little carbine.
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A bit from the M-N Bible regarding the infamous 91/59:

"There is an alleged Bulgarian Mosin-Nagant mutant designated the Model 1891/59, see Figure 3-1, the details of which are reportedly as follows: sometime after World War II the Soviets persuaded (or forced) the Bulgarians to aquire surplus ex-Russian M1891/30s in addition to the M1891s already in inventory, and to convert them into slightly more modern weapons somewhat like M1938 carbines. This work was undertaken at the Bulgarian arsenals in Tarnovo and Kasanlak in the later 1950s, and the result was Bulgaria's Model 1891/59. The weapon was fabricated largely by shortening existing M1891 and M1891/30s. The barrel on the new weapon is 20.5" in long, and the total length is 39.75 in. It weighs 7.5 lbs. Total production of this carbine is supposedly 35,000.

"The author cannot confirm the origins of this weapon and it is reported only for the reader's information. In my opinion, the M1891/59 is a Russian product made of parts salvaged from otherwise scrappable Mosin-Nagants and meant as a reserve weapon in the event of invasion by the West - always a consideration for Soviet planners, especially in the 1950s when the Cold War was very frosty indeed.

"Reportedly, these M1891/59 carbines were used in the Soviet Union by the VoKhr (Voiska Vnutrennei Okhrani, i.e., Interior Guard Troops) in the 1960s, while guarding lower-level facilities such as railroad bridges, warehouses, etc."

From The Mosin-Nagant Rifle, by Terence W. Lapin. All M-N nuts should purchase a copy of this. They don't sell it in the mall but it's available from several online retailers.

One of the cool things about M-N's (and Russian weapons in general) is that the records were not always kept well and there are many mysteries involved. The 91/59 is just one mystery of many. Here we have a usually-Russian rifle (but not always), that looks like an M38 but is marked differently, and has the sights from a 91/30 with some of the range graduations ground off...and no one is quite sure who assembled them or why. The story that I'd heard involved Albanian assembly and East German useage but I'm not convinced. Mr. Lapin's theory is probably closer to the truth. (Although with the amount of SKS's in the inventory - and coupled with the hundreds of thousands of "shorty" Mosin-Nagants left over from WWII - I'm not sure why there would be a need to assemble more rifles. Busy work for the factories? We may never know, but I'm convinced that these were indeed late '50's vintage and they were strictly for second line issue and training only. But again, we may never know.)

And of course, Aardvaark, we're not even touching on some of the more interesting variants - the Finnish Mosin-Nagants, for example. (Rebuilt Soviet rifles that had been dropped once.) Or the American (!) Mosin-Nagants, built for Russia by Remington and Westinghouse during WWI.

It's a fascinating rifle. I'll leave it at that.

Extraction may be tight but it shouldn't require two hands. If you're finding yourself unlocking the action by beating on the bolt handle with a blunt instrument there's a problem.

How tight is tight? When I work the bolt on a M-N, I actually slap the handle on the upstroke, knock it to vertical, and yank it back in the same motion. When I'm throwing the bolt forward I use my palm against it. I never actually grab the knob. It does take a bit of force but it shouldn't require a cheater bar, know what I mean? (If it makes you feel better, working the bolt on a Nagant makes for brisk bolt work on other bolt guns, which is a good thing.)
 
Sticky bolt syndrome is caused by hardened cosmoline inside the chamber. After firing a few rounds it heats up and sticks to the bolt. Best way to clean it is fire until the bolt barely opens and then clean the hell out of the chamber. Keep repeating the process until that bolt stops sticking.
 
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