OT: Polishing 'silver' silverware, Firkin? Anyone?

M

munk

Joined
Mar 22, 2002
Messages
15,742
My Mother surprized me with an old chest of drawers and a silverware collection.

There are some utensils I've never heard of nor seen before.
Anyway, some is tarnished, oxidized, and I wonder why I have to clean it? It won't change the flavor any, will it? I like reds and blues. Also, once tarnished, wouldn't that contain the process, halt it?

If this silver is valuable should I clean it at all?


I don't know why people clean their silver. Mom said not to clean too hard or I'd loose the metal with time.


munk
 
If its dirty or stained I clean it, If its just nicly tarnished I leave it alone in its beuty! ;)

Seen to much damage dun by the happy houswife brigade, ;)

Lots of collecters & especialy dealers think it should be all shiney & new looking though!

20 years ago museams used to polish lots, Now they dont.

Spiral
 
I'd consider leaving it. Khukuris aren't the only thing that gains character from a bit of patina. If you decide to clean it, check out this link on silver cleaning. I've always wanted to try the baking soda thing myself. I remember back in the late 90's they had an infomercial for a miracle silver cleaner that was basically a block of aluminum that you put in a pan of water with some baking soda to clean your silver.

--Josh
 
Here's one link on cleaning silver.

I don't have any silver, so no direct experience.

http://www.sideroad.com/Antiques/silver_cleaning.html

I've seen the aluminum foil thing before, but you might want to try it first at a lower temperature. Something like this will clean all crevices and depresions in the pattern. You'll need to degrease the items with soapy water, and maybe a rinse with isopropanol if you want to be sure that the effect is uniform. Scrubbing is not required. But avoid fingerprints. Haven't looked into exactly how this works--so I would not go any longer than necessary. Offhand, I don't think any silver is removed, I'm not certain. It is obviously and electrolytic reaction of some sort. Be very careful to rinse throughly in clean water afterwards and store the objects dry as a precaution.

Here's a discussion on the method with anecdotal discussion regarding tarnishing and untarnishing silver:

http://www.finishing.com/1000-1199/1178.html

May give you some ideas, but you might want to do further research. The point about not doing the reaction in a metal container makes sense.


How to clean depends on what you are after--If you want the pattern highlighted by retention of patina in depressions, you'll want to wipe with a minimum of some kind of cleaner/polish on a cloth.

I wouldn't bother unless you're going to eat with it, and are concerned that wear of the tarnish will be uneven and unsightly.

My understanding is, that as it is usually kept, silver tarnishes in large part due to reaction with small amounts of sulfer compounds in the atmosphere. The only way to prevent it is to store it in a hermetically sealed container.

As far as affecting value....As far as I can tell it follows the perverse rules of "collectables".

Objects made of noble metals that don't destructively corrode are favored by collectors when polished and shiny, and of course the more perfect the condition, the better. Since plated objects are subject to loss of the plating by over-polishing, it makes little sense that there would be many such old objects around. Hence collectors want them.

Objects made of metals that are subject to destructive corrosion such as copper, or steel, are deemed more valuable if they show no evidence of ever being polished or oiled, and again, the closer the condition to new (except of course the patina) the more they are sought after, again because a sensible person would expect that to be the least probable condition.

You can always decide to polish them later.
 
Munk?

In the way-back corner of a never-touched shelf, I found a silver tray given to my ex-wife and me for our wedding (1967).

Corrosion had gone through the silver plating and irreparably damaged it.

Research further, before doing nothing.

Kis
 
Walmart has a gold and silver polishing cloth that you can ask for in their jewelery dept. They're only a couple of bucks and take off only a little silver each time. Basically you only want to clean until the tarnish is removed and then polish slightly. The cloth has two pieces too it. After I polish my silver jewelery I keep it sealed in zip-top plastic bags to help keep it from tarnishing further. It will keep a lot longer that way. Using a straw to suck out all the air possible helps to make it retain the polish even longer.
 
My veiw was for solid silver, Is that right? or is it silver plate?

Dont now what to say for silverplate,Thats a no win situation, if you clean it it wheres through to the copper if you dont if badly stored it corrodes right through. ;)

Spiral
 
Okey dokey.



wish you could see it. There's a couple more modern things thrown in- some stainless steel carving knives and a fork- single metal blade and handle.

When was stainless invented? This comes from Austria.

The sterling silver comes in felt bags marked Jaccard Jewlery and Silversmiths, Kansas City

There are some odd peices- gifts probably. ONe is marked Rodgers bros, I think. The writing is so small it defies description.

Some of you younger forumites don't realize Kansas City was big stuff 50 years ago. Actually a culturally happening place.

Today it's probably a good place to drink. Lots.


munk
 
Here's the deal on the electrolytic method. Apparently people sell devices that work on the same priniciple.

As the purity of the silver increases, the problem of corrosion or tarnishing lessens.

Chemically, silver is not very active — it does not react with oxygen or water at ordinary temperatures, so does not easily form a silver oxide. However, the other metal in the alloy, usually copper, may react with oxygen in the
air.

Silver tarnish, however, is the formation of black silver sulfide on the surface of the metal. This tarnish is caused by sulphur and sulfides which attack the surface of the silver. Because of this, the rate of discolouration of silver by tarnish is worse with higher levels of these airborne pollutants.

Eggs, which contain a considerable quantity of sulfur as a constituent of protein, tarnish silver extremely quickly. Small amounts of sulfide occur in the atmosphere naturally, but another major man-made source is hydrogen sulfide
(H2S), which is added to natural gas used domestically. Hence a gas flame can also tarnish silver.

The black silver sulfide (Ag2S) is among the most insoluble salts in aqueous solution, a property that is exploited for separating silver ions from other positive ions.

A very popular technique for removing tarnish involves the creation of an electrochemical cell. If the other metal is anodic relative to silver, then the silver in the sulfide will revert to metallic silver. The metal at the anode will be
oxidized. The sulfide ions can travel to the anode via the electrolyte (solution). Metals that will work are iron, zinc, aluminium and magnesium. Aluminium foil is cheap.

A typical procedure is to line a pyrex glass dish with alumimium foil so the bright side of the foil will contact the solution. Add one litre of water, and heat until near boiling.

Add one tablespoon of sodium chloride and one tablespoon of sodium bicarbonate, and gently stir to dissolve. Ensure that the silverware has been washed in warm dishwashing detergents, and well rinsed in warm water to remove dirt
and grease.

Carefully add the silverware to the dish, ensuring that each item is in contact with the aluminium foil, and boil until the tarnish has disapppeared, turning the silverware if necessary. The continuous boiling is required so that the
aluminium oxide continually exposes the unreacted aluminium surface beneath, otherwise the reaction will not occur. The aluminium will gradually be converted to aluminium oxide. The hydrogen that is generated in the reaction will
combine with the sulfide ions to produce some hydrogen sulfide gas (rotten egg gas).

It should be noted that the process is not converting the silver back to the original hard, lustrous surface, but into a soft, white powder that can be removed easily by rubbing with a little bicarbonate of soda paste. The silver powder
will be easier to remove than the tarnish would have been.

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/s/st/sterling_silver.html

This seems to me to be the least destructive method. If done carefully, the only silver that is removed will be that which was converted to the tarnish. The finish may still need to be polished with a cleaning cloth to get original lustre I guess. Maybe only use this method if it is felt that unacceptable rubbing and scrubbing is needed to remove the existing tarnish.

As noted by others, proper storage seems key.

Kis, ouch.
 
The Talking Mr Ed, er uh, Car, no, Engineer father of mine said in 50 years they've polished their silver three times.

I bet a light touch does wonders.

I'm not up to the boiling system.


Why is silverware kept in felt? No scratch?


munk
 
"Kis, ouch"




No worries, it's just a 'thing.' If it had never existed, it would not have affected my life. :)





Kis
Enjoy every sandwich
 
good attitude Kis.

I thought I was the only persom that remembered that horrible, short-lived mother-reincarnated-as-a-talking car show. (twitch)
 
Munk,

If you don't want to mess with the solution method, Yvsa's idea is a good one. get some jewelry polishing cloths, and also some polish. I like hagerty's myself. Follow the insctructions on the bottle. use an old T shirt for rubbing the polish off. use the nice polishing cloth for maintenance. After polishing, if you are going to eat with them,wash in the sink with hot water and dish soap. Don't let them air dry, but wipe dry with a soft towel. (they will spot)Polish with the jewelers cloth before you store them.

This method will not be too hard on the silver.

One philosophy says use very seldom, as cleaning will eventually wear out the silver. Other says the more you use it, the easier to keep clean. It will wear more though. Both true, just depends on what you want. Every day enjoyment, or long term pass it on to somebody durability.

let me kow when you are ready to get a nice big "M" engraved on them! :D

or maybe take one unique piece for each of your kids, and get their name and birthdate engraved on them.

Talk to you later,

Tom
 
Finally, somebody's talking sense about this.


We've gone the rounds on this polishing silver thing before. It's in the archives, I'm sure of it.

Rather than reiterate everything already said, I'll say this:

I agree with firkin on the solution method, and with yvsa and gravertom on the polishing cloth method. And this comes from somebody who has handled, repaired and resold antique furniture.

I wish we could turn do away with the ole "urban legend" of the lady who polishes her precious vase only to find out she reduced the cost from $50,000 to 50 dollars. :mad:

The only one I know of was a copper vase, in the first place. And she removed a patina that takes a very long time to build up. The value lost was also because of the harsh cleaning job she did. Now she has to wait another 50 years for the patina to return, at which point, it will be worth 1,000 times what it is now.....see the futility?

Anyway, my gripe is with the "don't polish it, just leave it" method. The truth is that there is a big difference between dirt build-up and true patina. Patina comes from use, atmospheric exposure and time. Build-up comes from neglect.

Keep your goods polished and clean.


**rant mode off**




munk - I have a full set of silver silverware that we use every day. We polish it probably once or twice a year with a light chami-type cloth.

Keep it away from eggs and the flame (as mentioned above) but also from mustard, pickles and mayonaise - if you can.

Our silverware is over 100 years old and it's the oldy-but-goody type and I love to use it. Do I let my kids eat with it? You bet. :D

Do they get to take it outside in the sandpile? No way!
 
Well I used to be a cabinet maker before I became a lecturer then counselor & have regularily dealt with antique silverware & militaria for over 20 years, including a miss spent youth.

Old wives tail? still time to learn for some I reckon! ;)

I guess antique silver in England is much older than antique silver in the USA. History & all that. So perhaps we have seen different material?

Must admit Sterling {925} is a bit harder than Britania {958} silver & loads harder than Nepalese {999+} & quality Indian silver though, thats so soft its surreal.

The old coin silver {800} used in the usa on Victorian bowies is hard as nails though.. ;)

But please Belive me The happy houswives & subdued subalterns have polished many things to the the point where even the hallmarks are unreadable.

Thats not an old wives tail its a fact!

Spiral ;)
 
agreed - there needs to be a middle-point between "leave it alone" and "polish regularly".
 
We met a woman at a moving sale once who was selling a full set of sterling silver (as opposed to silverplate). We were chatting about caring for the silver and she said that she had used this for DAILY meals, even while raising kids!

When you use silver, you need to hand wash it promptly, hand dry it throroughly, and put it away. You can't just toss them into the sink or dishwasher to get later. That almost guarantees tarnish and possible other damage.

The neat thing is that frequent use and straightforward washing will actually help enourmously in preventing tarnish. Is hand washing a pain? She said that this was a nightly chore that the kids were required to help with. The really neat part was that while standing around doing the dishes, she and the kids would actually TALK. The kids would open up and she'd get to find out what was going on, who their friends were, and actually get to discuss things. Much more than if you walk in, turn off the TV, and say "Let's talk."


We kind of like Tarn-X for removing heavy tarnish, but have found this is only needed for recent yard-sale acquisitions (we just LOVE seeing old, black, ugly flatware). Proper cleaning and storage (felt bags and lined boxes that are designed for silver have some sort of tarnish retardant) prevent most recurring tarnish.
 
The wood and the felt help control the moisture in the box. That's why you see it still used today in Gertsner's machinist tool boxes.
 
Dan et al;

I have some pieces with blues and reds- a patina. I assumed people wanted this rubbed off and I did not see why this was neccesary. I found a fork yesterday with horrible green blue gunge on it. I removed this.
If you could clarify patina from corruption I'd appreciate it.



munk
 
No prob, munk.

I'm not the final authority on silver, but I'll give it my best.

Patina is a combination of many things - not just aging. It varies depending on the material involved. With wood products (something we all understand well), patina can occur on the finish, or the wood, or both. On a lacquered finish (for example), it develops into a lizard-skin-type texture from exposure to moisture changes (hot/cold, dry/wet). All wood is changed at least slightly by UV exposure and oxidation (exposure to oxygen). The effects vary, but usually it is a darkening of the wood.

This is a natural process and will happen regardless of whether your wood product is meticulously polished or left out, untouched.

Now, let's say you buy that brand new piece of furniture and leave it untouched in the garage through your grandson's grandson's lifetime. It collects dirt, dust and grime (from humidity changes, etc.)

Compare this to your "other grandson's grandson" who meticulously cleans and polishes his identical piece.


Are the two pieces equal in value? Has the son that has cleaned and polished, somehow reduced it's value? On the contrary, he has contributed to its history and at the least, sentimental value. He has also kept it "preserved". When we appraised furniture, we looked for signs of use as well as age. We wanted to see "rub marks" under box tops showing that the trunk had been opened & closed thousands of times. We wanted to see the occasional dent on the side.



Now, patina on metals...specifically, silver....is a whole-nuther animal......still has some similarities though.

There isn't a deep oxidation like there is with wood. With metals, all the aging takes place on the surface. So how can you tell how old a piece is if the surface has been cleaned?

Simple, by looking at the "wear-n-tear". In this sense, "patina" has taken on a much broader meaning to include the subtle scratches made from polishing, from use, etc. These are the scratches that should never be removed on an important piece. You want to see as much of that as you can. So, mirror polishing is bad.

However, polishing to remove grime (compare to the wood example) is perfectly acceptable. In fact, you are adding to the patina by polishing carefully. Silver that has been polished over time takes on a brushed finish of its own. That's what my 19th Cent. set has all over it - fine scratches from use & polish (I should say that I use a cloth that has very little compound in it - the cotton is doing more work than the compound).

So, comparison scenario time:

Scenario 1: you lock up your silver in an air-tight container with moisture protection (easy to do, actually) and save it for future generations.
- Pros: your son will get it in 99.9% the same quality as when you got it. Value potentially increased over time.
- Cons: you get "0" satisfaction from usage, only from ownership. You add no patina, just the natural effects of time.


Scenario 2: you keep it stored, but not in a proper container. It needs polishing, but never gets it.
- Pros: Very low maintenance/inexpensive.
- Cons: Reduces value because of dirt/dust/build-up. Require a one-time cleaning that risks removing too much silver because of the aggressive compound needed. No natural patina added, but time/age patina risked being damaged by a cleaning.

Scenario 3: you use it everyday
- Pros: You get 100% satisfaction from use, retain the value of the silver by keeping it polished, and add to the natural patina.
- Cons: You get 95% satisfaction of ownership (reduced because of the risk of loss/breaking/etc.). Also, if you are not careful, you run the risk of wearing the steel through.


In short (which this has not been)....dirt and grime is not patina and does not add to the value. Evidences of gentle wear (scratches, etc.) and any natural aging effects (UV, oxidation) are real patina and should be treated carefully (but not necessarily entirely saved).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top