OT-Wound Ballistics -Myth vs. Fact

C

clearblue

Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
630
Something to consider:

http://www.jpfo.org/jp_iwba.htm

It seems to follow that the wound caused by a sharp Kukri due to it's weight would be much more devastating than most other blades.
Severe blood loss and CNS trauma would be just the ticket in the case of an animal attack like the recent cougar maulings in California.
 
Thank you, Clearblue...

Follows what I've experienced hunting. Adrenelin is also an incredible stimulant for a wounded creature. I've seen deer which should not have been able to move, travel incredible distances, jumping fences on the way. I tracked one for a "hot-dog" shooter whose motto seemed to be "Ready. Fire. Aim." jerk.
 
This kinda stuff gets argued on Practical Tactical all the time. Generally, it would likely follow that stabs will kill you, eventually; slashes are often ignored unless they cut tendons, and even that is no guarantee; but chops from a huge blade that cause massive damage are the most dangerous.
Breaking bones and severing tendons and nerves is always a bad way to start your day :)
Lets hope none of us ever have to find out how reliable our khukuris are at doing this kind of damage. There are plenty of anecdotes about Gurkhas in war to tell us that our favorite knife can do the job when called upon.
 
As a khukuri is primarily a chopping weapon, Mr. Badexample, it doesn't fit the slashing or stabbing choices. As you say, once tendons and bone are cut it is a different story. It is very hard to imagine being hit with a sincere blow from a khukuri and responding much afterwards with one's arm dangling from the side or laying on the floor. Blood loss if nothing else is going to be quick.

I think I've read every published wound ballistic report avaiable t o the general market at one time or another. Though I have a lot of faith in my large bore revolvers, incidents where 44 slugs fill with clothing material and pass through the body without expansion, letting the assailent continue, give me pause.

In the best of all possible worlds, any 41, 45 Colt, or 44 mag should do enough damage to incapacitate in one or two shots.

But things go wrong. The article referred constantly to 'science' verses 'myth', and then proceeded to list some of the more common myths.

Trouble is, science has not understood all the variables with wound ballistics. (and we've run out of goats)


The experts agree; do hard tissue damage, penetrate deep, and have the largest diameter projectile possible.

That is one great reasons why I love my large bore revolvers, and am a knife nut about one blade; HI Khukuris.

As Clearblue says, a khukuri would seem a good choice for Cougar defense- if you can reach the cat.






munk
 
Having dispatched a fair share of game animals and dressed them out for the freezer, there is a difference between using a sharp edge on a carcass and on a moving body not to mention first getting the edge through the hide in the case of animals and through the clothing in the case of humans.

Here's a couple of links that might be of interest in the application of an edge to flesh and bone,with the idea to effect incapacitation:

http://www.gutterfighting.org/smatchet.html

http://www.gutterfighting.org/fairbairnknife.html

I put in the smachet cause it has similiarities to the kuk regarding the chopping tactics.
:)
 
I noticed the helmets of the opposition where decidedly German in appearance. Fairbain's an old soldier, isn't he?

I get it- blunt force trauma as well as deep permanent tissue damage.


I also see if you hit an artery it's all over in seconds.


munk
 
In my experiences with hunting, A broadhead arrow will kill deer or boar faster with a heart or lung shot than a 12 ga. slug.

I think the reason is Hemorhagging. A modern broadhead has up to six razor blades on it, an makes fer a lot of bleeding. A slug causes tissue damage, but not always terminal bleeding.

My grandfather was in WWII, and was shot multiple times. So was one of my teachers at college. They both reported being shot in the back, which knocked them down (perhaps because they were already in motion it the direction of the bullet, I dunno). Neither saw their assailant, and they both got up to run again. This happened until both were shot 3-5 times, then they realized that they were being shot. In my Grandad's case, things were too chaotic for his assailants to hit him again, and he went to ground. My teahc feigned death, even when they kicked him inn the ribs as they stood over him.

Both lived to tell the tale.

Early gun studies in Europe and the new world found that there was a psychologial factor that causes shock when a person is shot with an arrow vs. gun. The bullet leaves a pretty tidy entry wound, little more than a hole to let you know you've been injured. An arrow, however, bakes a big nasty cut, and you have this arrow stuck in you (which was found to cause shock, leading to incapacitation and death, even if a major artery or organ was not hit).

I agree with Munk also that a khuk is not a slasher, but a chopper, and would cause about as much damage as an axe chop, with better penetration.
 
Definitely don't want to get hit with a khukuri. Especially a big one! Remember a post about someone using one in Afganistan. Two chops and the fight was over. Something about the CO not wanting the media to pick up on the guys 20" Sirupati.
As far as stabbing goes, had a friend from high school who got slashed then stabbed(smaller knife). He said the slash didn't bother him too much but when the perp stuck the knife in his back it was lights out. Khukuris may not be the best stabbers, but you should watch Lynn Thompson on the new Cold Steel Proof DVD. He slashes with "his" kukri through tatami mats, then stabs the kukri all the way through a big tatami rolled up. Guess it can be done. Even Dr. Duvon Winborne used the technique.
 
Never hunted with a 12 ga. But doubt even a modern arrow head as effective overall as a modern slug from a conventional round like a 30.06 or 45/70

Most bow hunters I've talked to acknowledge deer and elk running off wounded- usually happening early in their hunting careers.

When off balance, it takes very little force to 'knock one down'. People used to talk, and still do, of hunting rifles knocking down game. Losing balance and falling is different than being picked up and slammed to earth by a mega super round from the newest hottest cartridge.



munk
 
I have never been stabed or slashed with a knife.
I did have a zip cut blade though shater on me and take out two tendons and an artery on my fore arm. The shock of the impact would have been much less than a Khuk hit. But regardles, by the time I made it to the hospital (maybe 5-6mins) I was in shock, and had darn near blead to death. Thats even with a turnoque. It took over 15mis with one of those michanical turoques to stop the bleading enuf so the artery could be stiched.
 
I have knife scars from ankle to neck but they were all due to docs cutting on me and that doesn't count. I don't think.
 
It is very hard to predict how someone will react to trauma. Stress can make someone immune to pain from trauma - the body gives off endorphins, natural pain killers that are similar to opiates.
I have seen people ignore knife wounds. Years ago, a friend of mine (then a teenager) was shot (a 22) by kids trying to steal his bike . He beat them up and didn't even know that he was injured until someone pointed out the blood on his shirt. He then fainted.

People have taken critical injuries and ignored them - until they collapsed after the threat was over.

Speculation about stopping power is just that - I am not sure that you can ever predict how people or animals will react to trauma.

Even a chicken may run off without a head! I guess that will stop the chicken from attacking you.
 
[QUOTE Even a chicken may run off without a head! I guess that will stop the chicken from attacking you. [/B][/QUOTE]

Good point! I have brought Game Cocks back from almost dead. In fact they had been thrown into the dead pile.

As long as they were breathing there was hope. Feeding them raw eggs for a few days works miracles and in a week you'll have a rooster crowing at first light greeting the day again.

I never was able to save one that had no head altho' I suspect some of the ol timers had stories for the new and the young of such miracles. :rolleyes: ;)
 
Some folks say they favor light, "lively" knives for fighting.

Me, I favor heavy choppers. My 16.5" WWII is about perfect for fightin' use for me (god forbid). My Chitlangi wouldn't be bad, either.
 
Dunno if this is pertinent, but in the extra informative bits on the HUNTED dvd, the professional knife fight trainers remarked: "Most knife fights don't last as long as the one in the movie. But (like this one), if they do, one combatant will be dead, and the other will need to be hospitalized." (or words to that effect.)

AND since I'm speaking of the HUNTED...(I watch the few tapes/DVDs I have over and over)...that movie just keeps on getting me more and more aggravated. So MUCH could have been made of the talent and story. Instead, the impossibilities and inconsistencies occur again and again.) [end of rant]

And this bit on bullets 'n stuff:

Hydrostatic shock
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Hydrostatic shock is the effect commonly believed to be caused by a high velocity object entering a body, such as a bullet fired from a weapon.

The shock is described in the following way—the object will cause ordinary damage by the actual penetration, but also pass a shock-wave in the surrounding tissue due to the energy of the slowing object being passed into the largely liquid material of the body (65%+). The shockwave, or sometimes competing shockwaves from multiple impacts, are believed to cause greater damage than the object itself, sometimes enough to rupture internal organs and fracture bone. Especially large objects are believed to cause hydrostatic shock by the closure of the cavity created by the object's passage.

There is a body of opinion, however, that believes hydrostatic shock is arrant nonsense. The argument is based around how energy is transferred and the effects of such a transfer. Issues raised include kinetic energy vs. momentum, the rate of energy transfer, thermodynamics (the energy transfer would be into heat), the speed of sound in tissue, hydrodynamic effects, 'wound tracks', and the nature of a body.

That the effect exists is possible—explosions in water will damage nearby solid items by the transit of shock waves—but this is not in the same category of effect as a bullet strike. However it can be said that a lot of people do believe in the effect, which others would claim makes it merely "well-established superstition".


I'm remembering a waxed paper half-gallon milk container, filled with water, put on a stump and shot by a LOVELY little .22 Hornet 200 yards away.(That was such a pretty little gun...single shot, European, and not-mine.) Only the bottom of the container remained.
 
From reading CE Harris and the usual group of terminal wound ballistic junkies, the Army is currently moving away from "hydrostatic' shock. Incapacitation is seen resulting from permanent wound channels. Apparently, Kismet, humans and animals are able to recover from hydrostatic shock.

How this relates to bloodshot meat that must be cut out of a havested deer is beyond me. I won't eat it. Stands to reason the animal didn't like it much. That's your waterjug.



munk
 
Every two weeks or so, there is a report of a shooting on the south side of Chicago (in the Trib). The story goes like this...
The individual took 2 or more gunshot wounds to the chest, and then drove to the nearest hospital - often more than 5 minutes away from the site of the shooting. The poor injured person then died at the hospital.
I have read reports of people taking gut shots from a 270 Win. and then taking out the shooter. A number of years ago, a nut took a class hostage at SUNY (if I recall correctly). A brave student disarmed the guy with the rifle, but not before taking a shot to the gut. I might believe that there is some shock value to a hit from a 270, but nothing is certain. People can do a lot of damage while they are dying. It takes some time for blood loss to lead to a loss of consciousness.

The only thing that might lead to a sure "stop" would be if an individual were to lose his head - literally. Perhaps a blow to the spinal cord would do it, but I would not count on anything else.
The idea is to never stop when defending yourself. The badguy is like a cat with more than 9 lives.
 
I would like to say the blood loss is very impressive when cut or stabbed.

I have been on the receiving end, as well as the giving. I always was impressed how much blood there is.

Take a gallon of milk and spill it all around the floor. That is only a small sample of what a real knife fight is all about .:eek:

It gets very sticky in a very short time.:confused:
 
Take a gallon of milk and spill it all around the floor. That is only a small sample of what a real knife fight is all about- Sams

You must have been fighting one of the androids in Alien....just kidding; your description is chilling and sobering.

Arty, the experts all agree a major CNS hit ends the battle the quickest, spine, head, la de da.




munk
 
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