Other knifefighters

S

Stormbringer

Joined
Oct 22, 2000
Messages
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As FMA practitioners, how do you view the knife skills of the following (similarities, differences, effectiveness, weaknesses):

Bujinkan
Hwa Rang Do
The System
Rovere's Chinese Combatives

I am not questioning the skills of any of these groups. I merely would like to here outside opinions from people in the know of the subject of knifefighting. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN SIMPLE VIDEO REVIEWS. Discuss the styles, not their presentation in one video series.
 
Hello Stormbringer,
Before I start let me explain that I am not proficient in all the methods that you have mentioned but I have met and trained with students from several of those systems. As for myself, I have been actively involved in the FMA for about 20 years, I am also a 6th dan in the Bujinkan Dojo, the Director for Pekiti Tirsia kali in NH under Tuhon Gaje, Tribal Leader of AMOK! Tribal art of the blade under Tom Sotis, and earlier this year I started training with Tuhon Sayoc.
The Bujinkan lacks the realism found in FMA knife work. Many shidoshi and shihan have recognized this and try to add FMA curriculum to their blade work. Traditional (old style schools pre 1890) all focused on short bladed weapons and even projectile weapons. But this was usually against an arwed and armored opponent which will dictate targeting, and the methodology to employ. Although the Budo taijutsu has some blade wrok you must look outside in order to really appreciate it.(Sensei Hatsumi is awesome to train with though)
Hwa Rang Do - This style does do extensive work with the blade one friend of mine used to train in Hwa rang do and eventually went into the Green Berets. When I last saw him he told me that much of the early combatives taught to special forces revolved around Hwa Rang Do techniques but also includes FMA because of the effectiveness. This fits with the Mike Echanais to FMA evolution.
Systema - I have only seen and felt a little of this style. The individual also was an AMOK! blade person, so we really didn't get to compare on systema's blade work. Although I would suspect it is similar to the ROSS system of blade work taught to the Russian military.
I hope this helps
Train Hard, it is the Way!
Steve
 
JACKPOT!!!!!!!! That is the kind of answer I was looking for. Anybody else with such a rich training background wishing to offer input?
 
Stormbringer, I have studied and observed a number of different styles. Of course SAYOC KALI, but I'm also a teacher under Willem de Thouars in KunTao Silat, I've trained in Serrada Eskrima and observed in detail Pekiti Tirsia, Seni Gayong Silat, Black Dragon Kung Fu- Art Gitlin and some others.

It seems to me that the styles can be put into similar families, either by origin or flavor of movement.

The Silat is very similar in many ways, although not the same just because they may all be called Silat.

Just as the FMA can be very different. There is something I've seen over the years and that is that some styles of Kali seem closer to Silat in movement than other FMA's. Now of course this is do to the fact that the Majapihit empire in the 12th century spread much of the influence through the Islands, all the way from India, touching both Silat and Kali systems, although many of the FMA were influenced by the Spanish enough to change them very much. Anyway the training methods and movements differ greatly among the FMA and Indo arts.
As far as teaching them effectively, the teaching methodology needs to be looked at closely, and that is where most of them fall down on the job, you see the question is not only, can the guy teaching use it, but how effective is he in transferring that information, in that regard SAYOC KALI is way ahead of the rest, although the others have some terrific fighters, it will take longer to obtain and the info lost in translation is greater. I know this will ruffle some feathers, but please understand I say this being an instructor in more than one style so it is not said out of loyalty to one but it is just how I see it.

Tom Kier
 
Airyu,

To you personally, at what point do you see the similarity between Bujinkan and FMAs like Pekiti-Tirsia or Sayoc Kali and then, in your opinion, what sets them apart as well, on a technical level? I mean, the nuts and bolts.

Mr. Kier,

You always offer such a wealth of information on Sayoc Methods, in your opinion, where do the better FMA Methods cross with Indonesian Silat Methods you have studied, what are the similarities that a person could draw from and make their own, and then at what point do they depart company, so to speak?

You guys can be as technical as you want, I enjoy it. If I don't understand, I'll ask other things.

There was a time when I saw the similarities between better Japanese Tantojutsu Arts and FMAs and Indo-Silat as being;

[1] They all concentrate on footwork and body angling instead of static stances, instead of alot of Karate Styles where the person is never really taught to have fluid footwork.

[2] They all concentrate on the angle or plane the attack is coming in on, instead of specific attacks like Karate and alot of other arts tend to do.

Both of which add up to fluidity in combat.

One of the places, technically speaking, that I thought they parted ways was, with using two hands on the knife or in-tight, close combat grappling with blades. I thought the Japanese had that in their camp, but the more I see a broader spectrum of FMA, the more I see two hands using power on small knives for cutting and thrusting and the more I see the Anti-Grappling maneuvers that I once thought the Japanese had the market cornered on when it came to grappling with steel in your hand and to defeat attempts at same.

Silat is fascinating to watch for me personally because of the torquing effects on the body as well as compression during same, which in effect, can splinter a person's spine, etc.
 
Hello Mr Rearic,
You pose an intersting question. First from the Budo Taijutsu perspective(Bujinkan method of fighting); Sensei Hatsumi does not openly teach blade work in a blade only method. The use of any tool is placed within the unarmed fighting skills. With slight adaptations of body mechanics, and footwork the weapon can be adapted as well as the sword, spear etc. Jujutsu techniques evolved from "armed" fighting skills! Therefore jujutsu based styles would deal with an attack sequence based on the type of armor(or lack of), and the bladed weapon being faced. The FMA are totally based on a similar but also different concepts. The development of skills in the bladed weapons fell off in Japan after the restoration period, while the FMA have only continued on in their experimentation and implementation in a hostile environment. The skills in the short and long blade of the FMA are designed for a different type of battlefield, and warfare. This is very suitable for the adaptation of these arts in the United States.
I hope this helps
Sincerely
Steve
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Don Rearic:


Mr. Kier,

You always offer such a wealth of information on Sayoc Methods, in your opinion, where do the better FMA Methods cross with Indonesian Silat Methods you have studied, what are the similarities that a person could draw from and make their own, and then at what point do they depart company, so to speak?</font>
Click to expand...

Mr.Rearic,
This is something that many people on both sides of the issue are a little touchy about.
There is no more of a difference between Silat and Kali than is found between various Silat styles.
Yes, there is a difference between northern and southern FMA's
And there are differences between Silats from different parts of Java, Sumatra, Bali, etc.

In the Philipines:
The North is more upright in posture, typically is more stick oriented and more linear in movement.

South is lower to the ground, bladed, circular and arcing in lines of attack, and more close quarter.

The South is very much like Silat. Typically Kali is more southern and has strong Indo influence.

North has strong Spanish influence. Just look at the terminology.

After studying both Silat and Kali over the years I see more similarities than differences.
As for getting very specific. That is a lot of work a whole book could be written on the cross over.

It seems the Silat men from the Mollucca's had a lot of stick work that paralleled, much of present day FMA's
And the Bugis used there Badiks and described tapping the knife in a similar manner to much of the knife tapping found in the FMA's.

The footwork also has numerous parallels, with, diamond, triangle, box, etc.

I think if someone doesn't see the strong similarities between them, they are not seeing the whole art, on one or both sides.

Tom Kier
SAYOC KALI

[This message has been edited by Liveblade (edited 01-24-2001).]
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Liveblade:
I think if someone doesn't see the strong similarities between them, they are not seeing the whole art, on one or both sides.

Tom Kier
SAYOC KALI
</font>
Click to expand...

I think that was a wonderful ending to a great post. That's why I wanted your input.

There is alot of controversy regarding Spanish influence and some think that there is no "original" FMA left that has not been touched by the Spanish influence. The question then becomes, can an art be passed down through the Ages and maintain no external influence.

Alot of people who, "beat the Western Drum of Martial Arts" have taken this position over the years and picked people like Inosanto apart on some of the things he has written. I think that is a travesty. There is alot of evidence to suggest that there are in fact "pure" lines handed down. I think the other side [Western] tends to take their position to take credit for something they never had anything to do with. In other words, some of these people more or less state, "Well, if it were not for European Influence, The Filipino Martial Arts would not be as effective." We all know about History and who writes it, the Victors write the History Books. That does not make it right either.

 
Don,

SOME western practitioners choose a convenient timeframe to dictate when their version of history ends and who is the victor.

I don't see any standing Spanish fort in the Philippines, unless you count the one that William Henry Scott discovered which had the skeletons of Spaniards still in their armour. They chose to starve to death in their fort than face the tribe waiting for them outside. The reason... they ran out of bullets.

The first Muslim cotta to fall were a combined attack from Visayan corcairs (also Filipino) and Spanish gunboats.

No current Spanish forts, no Spanish speaking country, no orders from Spain shows who the victors were. However, the Philippines has always been the true melting pot of the Pacific- thus any culture that enters it will affect it. Spain was recovering from the brutality the Moors did to them. They were conquered by the Moors for such a long time that to say their own culture does not have the Moor sword methods is picking and choosing their timeframes again to suit their agenda.

I'd have to say that American culture has more of an influence to day in the Philippines than Spain. In government, in the language and in the pop culture.

US, English and French accounts of the last days of the Spanish occupation in a third of the areas of the Philippine islands called it a "mopping up" once the Philippine troops got bullets too.

To say that Spain did not use guns to hold PARTS of the islands for so long is skewing history. If you check the inventory of Spanish galleons and even the final inventory in Intramuros- the last held fort by Spain. There were hundreds of thousands of bullets listed.

Gumagalang,
--Rafael--
 
Hello Sun Helmet,
It is always a pleasure to hear from a notable historian! I agree fully with your postings. Take for example the theory of Espada y Daga developing from the rapier skills of the Conquistadors. First, maybe there is some influence on developing a skill to counter an invaders weapons, but the rapier was a civilian weapon, not typical of a military operation. The history of the Filipino martial arts are wrought with inaccuracies (as you well know). Historical examination on the development of sword and defense systems of Europe, Asia, and even here in the United States, all have to be looked at in context of the political systems, social customs, ethnic background, physiology, clothing, military and civilian use etc etc. It is not only that the victor writes the history, it is also that people through time have distorted many of the issues surrounding a particular item to serve their needs.
Gumagalang
Steve L.
 
i respectfully disagree with the idea that espada y daga came from the spanish. first it was the protugese who cam first. and when they came the long and the short blades are already used in the philippines. second the way we use them is different, the short blade is a back up to the long blade. the short one is pulled out for surprise, so you usually have two or three blades hidden in different places. the application is very quick, and the preference is to have the other hand empty. this is where all those tying up technques and passing and stuff comes from.if you ever meet an old man who is an eskrimador, you will see what i mean. the "180 slashes" you see espada y daga being use for now is a new technique, maybe fifty years old or something. all the really old men are using the espada y daga very quickly, not i block this, then i block that then i snake both hands then i stab, then i...they are clever and cute, but that is not the technique that is effective and would have not made it through so many generations.

i havent seen the spanish version, but my guess is the guy pulls out both weapons (as if you can use both at the same time) and his opponent pulls out both weapons, and they exchange a million slashes and stabs. no, that only works in "zorro" movies.
 
Hello Kuntawman,
I agree that espada y daga, was indigenous to the Philippine islands prior to exploration of the Portugese and Spanish explorations, and eventual occupation of portions of the islands. Both the Portugese and Spanish blade fighting systems are very similar(Rapier and Cut and thrust sword systems) due to their close proximity.
Steve
 
There are those that think or insist that Musashi was half-Portuguese because he was large for a Japanese and had "bad skin." They also point to his use of two swords and the creation of that style of fighting in Japan with Katana and Wakizashi simultaneously as being a direct result of his exposure to similar arts from the Portuguese.

Now, that might be true, but when you examine where that theory comes from and you examine statements by some Western Martial Artists with regard to FMAs, you begin to see a disturbing and arrogant pattern.

Don't you think?

Thanks especially to Rafael and Steve for responding, that is what makes this Forum so great. Even I can learn things I have not yet discovered.



------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
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