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Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
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OVB Fisk Bowie: edge geometry? Fisk convex or factory?
- Thread starter bald1
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 1,597
Baldy,
Good question.....
We cannot put a convex bevel on the knife, and achieve the type of finish that we want on the blade. Thats right folks, for the price we are offering the knife at, we can't have a hand sanded satin finish with the sanding lines running the lenght of the blade. We can, however have a satin finish with the sanding marks running perpindicular to the lenght of the blade[like you are used to seeing on production satin finishes]. It will be a nice satin finish, but a convex bevel would ruin the finish, as the belt would come into contact with too much of the blade.
We will be grinding the blades THIN, and applying a standard sharpening bevel. Jerry has approved this geometry. He says that while convex bevels are better, if you grind it thin enough, and apply a standard flat bevel, its VERY close in performance. The prototypes DO perform well.
I think you will be VERY happy with what you get.
PS, Good question Bob....I'm surprised somebody didn't ask it earlier. As you can see, I had my answer ready for you
Good question.....
We cannot put a convex bevel on the knife, and achieve the type of finish that we want on the blade. Thats right folks, for the price we are offering the knife at, we can't have a hand sanded satin finish with the sanding lines running the lenght of the blade. We can, however have a satin finish with the sanding marks running perpindicular to the lenght of the blade[like you are used to seeing on production satin finishes]. It will be a nice satin finish, but a convex bevel would ruin the finish, as the belt would come into contact with too much of the blade.
We will be grinding the blades THIN, and applying a standard sharpening bevel. Jerry has approved this geometry. He says that while convex bevels are better, if you grind it thin enough, and apply a standard flat bevel, its VERY close in performance. The prototypes DO perform well.
I think you will be VERY happy with what you get.
PS, Good question Bob....I'm surprised somebody didn't ask it earlier. As you can see, I had my answer ready for you
Thanks Will. Interesting indeed and it sounds like it will be a winner.
The special flat bevel is probably better for most folks anyhow as convex edges take patience and skill to maintain. I remember heated discussions about the original Spyderco Bill Moran collaboration with it's mirror polish and Moran bevel. Lots of folks simply reprofiled them back to flat after not being able to get things sharp again after use. Ironically when Sal Glesser decided to keep the model, he revised it loosing the mirror finish and the convex edge in order to keep costs down. And that is a little cutter compared to your OVB Fisk Bowie!!!
I suspect that a decision you folks at Camillus had to make about the edge involved more than just the impact on the best way for you all to obtain a production brushed finishm but the extra costs associated with a beveled edge and the learning curve your customers would face in maintaining it.
I am REALLY looking forward to receiving my OVB Fisk Bowie. Everytime I see a picture I'm more impressed with what you all have done!
Thanks Will!!!
The special flat bevel is probably better for most folks anyhow as convex edges take patience and skill to maintain. I remember heated discussions about the original Spyderco Bill Moran collaboration with it's mirror polish and Moran bevel. Lots of folks simply reprofiled them back to flat after not being able to get things sharp again after use. Ironically when Sal Glesser decided to keep the model, he revised it loosing the mirror finish and the convex edge in order to keep costs down. And that is a little cutter compared to your OVB Fisk Bowie!!!
I suspect that a decision you folks at Camillus had to make about the edge involved more than just the impact on the best way for you all to obtain a production brushed finishm but the extra costs associated with a beveled edge and the learning curve your customers would face in maintaining it.
I am REALLY looking forward to receiving my OVB Fisk Bowie. Everytime I see a picture I'm more impressed with what you all have done!
Thanks Will!!!
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2000
- Messages
- 3,278
about the blade steel.
IIRC its 0170-6C (steel names like 1095 and 440 are so much easier to remember). what kind of performance can we expect from it compared to oh say 1095?
also,would using the blade be harmful on the edge if its ground so thinly? i know for slicing paper,rope,etc it wouldnt be a problem...but what about chopping?
thanks will.
IIRC its 0170-6C (steel names like 1095 and 440 are so much easier to remember). what kind of performance can we expect from it compared to oh say 1095?
also,would using the blade be harmful on the edge if its ground so thinly? i know for slicing paper,rope,etc it wouldnt be a problem...but what about chopping?
thanks will.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 4,670
Mo - Will once told me 0170-6C has similar performance to A2. I haven't used A2 so I cannot verify this for myself. But from having experience with both 1095 and 0170-6C, I'll take 0170-6C in a heartbeat.
- Joined
- May 26, 2000
- Messages
- 1,922
I'm not a metallurgist, but here is some info I gleanded from a few places:
1095 is simple stuff, just iron with about 0.95% carbon (0.9 - 1.03%) to make it "steel", and 0.3-0.5% manganese to improve hardenability, strength, and wear resistance a touch.
To that mixture, you add the following to get 0170-6, which is considered a simple "chromium carbon steel":
0.45% chrome
0.2% vanadium.
Chrome in low concentrations helps with toughness. (Of course at high concentrations, say above 10-12% I'm guessing, chrome impedes toughness, and significantly up at the levels seen in 440*).
Vanadium at low concentrations helps refine grain structure (makes it finer, smaller). It may combine with carbon to form a small amount of Vanadium Carbides at these levels, very slightly improving the abrasion resistance, but not appreciably. It's a grain refiner at these levels.
(If someone knows this subject better, please dive in and straighten me out here)
A2 has a somewhat more complicated formula and is getting into a more complex alloy. It is an air hardening tool steel (use to make machine tools and cutters for cutting other steels, and for wood, e.g. hand planers), and goes like this:
0.9 - 1.05% carbon
4.75-5.5% chrome
1.0% manganese
0.9-1.4% molybdenum
0.3% nickel
0.5% silicon
0.15 - 0.5% vanadium
Manganese is a deoxidizer in the smelting process. It somehow scavenges oxygen and apparently causes it to leave the melt somehow, I guess by bubbling out, but I haven't read anything on that mechanism.
Molybdenum helps to prevent deep corrosion pitting, and improves hardness (molyb carbides).
Nickel improves toughness and flexibility.
Silicon improves tensile strength and depth of hardness, and I think aids impact resistance (a toughness thing).
Now, I don't have experience with 0170-6 and A2 side-by-side in similar blades (or even better, in identical blades). A2 has the potential to make a somewhat better balanced overall blade, being plenty tough for most things (probably less tough than 0170-6) but adding some abrasion resistance to improve slicing type edge holding versus 0170-6. A2 is best if taken up to around Rc60-61 (where it appears to have a relative toughness peak).
But 0170-6 is an improvement over 1095 in my book, [edited to add that] particularly where a stock removal process is involved, as I don't recall seeing a hand-forger who used 0170-6 (which may have more to do w/ availability than with forge-ability).
The key for either is to receive a high quality, optimized heat treat. My Camillus Fisk Magnum and Patrol Machete are both good designs (important) and the steel seems to perform very well, subjectively. So my knives seem to have gotten a good heat treat.
Hope that helps.
1095 is simple stuff, just iron with about 0.95% carbon (0.9 - 1.03%) to make it "steel", and 0.3-0.5% manganese to improve hardenability, strength, and wear resistance a touch.
To that mixture, you add the following to get 0170-6, which is considered a simple "chromium carbon steel":
0.45% chrome
0.2% vanadium.
Chrome in low concentrations helps with toughness. (Of course at high concentrations, say above 10-12% I'm guessing, chrome impedes toughness, and significantly up at the levels seen in 440*).
Vanadium at low concentrations helps refine grain structure (makes it finer, smaller). It may combine with carbon to form a small amount of Vanadium Carbides at these levels, very slightly improving the abrasion resistance, but not appreciably. It's a grain refiner at these levels.
(If someone knows this subject better, please dive in and straighten me out here)
A2 has a somewhat more complicated formula and is getting into a more complex alloy. It is an air hardening tool steel (use to make machine tools and cutters for cutting other steels, and for wood, e.g. hand planers), and goes like this:
0.9 - 1.05% carbon
4.75-5.5% chrome
1.0% manganese
0.9-1.4% molybdenum
0.3% nickel
0.5% silicon
0.15 - 0.5% vanadium
Manganese is a deoxidizer in the smelting process. It somehow scavenges oxygen and apparently causes it to leave the melt somehow, I guess by bubbling out, but I haven't read anything on that mechanism.
Molybdenum helps to prevent deep corrosion pitting, and improves hardness (molyb carbides).
Nickel improves toughness and flexibility.
Silicon improves tensile strength and depth of hardness, and I think aids impact resistance (a toughness thing).
Now, I don't have experience with 0170-6 and A2 side-by-side in similar blades (or even better, in identical blades). A2 has the potential to make a somewhat better balanced overall blade, being plenty tough for most things (probably less tough than 0170-6) but adding some abrasion resistance to improve slicing type edge holding versus 0170-6. A2 is best if taken up to around Rc60-61 (where it appears to have a relative toughness peak).
But 0170-6 is an improvement over 1095 in my book, [edited to add that] particularly where a stock removal process is involved, as I don't recall seeing a hand-forger who used 0170-6 (which may have more to do w/ availability than with forge-ability).
The key for either is to receive a high quality, optimized heat treat. My Camillus Fisk Magnum and Patrol Machete are both good designs (important) and the steel seems to perform very well, subjectively. So my knives seem to have gotten a good heat treat.
Hope that helps.
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2001
- Messages
- 1,190
Mine is ordered and prepaid . . . just trying to figure out how to get it sent to me in central america since they won't be delivered til after I leave! (2/7) 
Oh well, gotta have something to look forward to!!!!!
Oh well, gotta have something to look forward to!!!!!
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 1,597
Mo,
You have[or had] a knife made from this steel....remember your BK&T BRUTE? Same steel. As far as durability of the steel in a blade ground thin...we have not had problems with the FISK designed MAGNUM CAMP KNIFE, and this blade will be just a bit shorter, and a bit thinner....Jerry has approved of not just the "thinness" of the blade style....but of that "thinness" in this steel. It will do anything short of concrete chopping that you ask of it.
mike990,
The clip will be ground close to, but not quite sharpened. If the owner wants to sharpen it, it would be a reasonalby easy task.
rdangerer,
Good post, you summed things up well! The ammounts of chromium and vanadium are approximate, and what they do is spot on. My comparison to A2 that I gave Dexter was a just an example to give him an idea what some alloying elements do for the steel. You explained it ALOT better than I did!
Jason,
Don't send this purty knife to the steamy jungles! Take one of those ugly BK&T's...thats tailor made for where you are going! If you need a 7" utility/belt/bowie...get a Combat/Utility-7...that is what the doctor ordered for that trip. Or maybe the Magnum Camp Knife
You have[or had] a knife made from this steel....remember your BK&T BRUTE? Same steel. As far as durability of the steel in a blade ground thin...we have not had problems with the FISK designed MAGNUM CAMP KNIFE, and this blade will be just a bit shorter, and a bit thinner....Jerry has approved of not just the "thinness" of the blade style....but of that "thinness" in this steel. It will do anything short of concrete chopping that you ask of it.
mike990,
The clip will be ground close to, but not quite sharpened. If the owner wants to sharpen it, it would be a reasonalby easy task.
rdangerer,
Good post, you summed things up well! The ammounts of chromium and vanadium are approximate, and what they do is spot on. My comparison to A2 that I gave Dexter was a just an example to give him an idea what some alloying elements do for the steel. You explained it ALOT better than I did!
Jason,
Don't send this purty knife to the steamy jungles! Take one of those ugly BK&T's...thats tailor made for where you are going! If you need a 7" utility/belt/bowie...get a Combat/Utility-7...that is what the doctor ordered for that trip. Or maybe the Magnum Camp Knife
- Joined
- Mar 31, 1999
- Messages
- 839
Mo
To add to something that Will was just saying in his response to you above. "The OVB is a bit thinner and shorter" or something to that nature. What I was trying for and Camillus is doing to good effect is this one has a concealed tang and with the stabalized maple it gives very good balance. Good balance combined with the steel that they really nail the heattreating and tempering on really makes a good piece. I have taken their blades as heat treated and tempered have really worked this steel over in testing and playing. I like it very well.
jf
To add to something that Will was just saying in his response to you above. "The OVB is a bit thinner and shorter" or something to that nature. What I was trying for and Camillus is doing to good effect is this one has a concealed tang and with the stabalized maple it gives very good balance. Good balance combined with the steel that they really nail the heattreating and tempering on really makes a good piece. I have taken their blades as heat treated and tempered have really worked this steel over in testing and playing. I like it very well.
jf
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2001
- Messages
- 1,190
Originally posted by Will Fennell
Jason,
Don't send this purty knife to the steamy jungles! Take one of those ugly BK&T's...thats tailor made for where you are going! If you need a 7" utility/belt/bowie...get a Combat/Utility-7...that is what the doctor ordered for that trip. Or maybe the Magnum Camp Knife
GOT THEM ALL!!! 7, PM, MC, etc!!
Gotta have something to look at too!!Will, Are we still looking at Feb. as a tentative ship date for the OVB's to go out to the dealers? I received my BK&T Mag.Camp knife today. It's gonna be a real favorite, probably gonna be used in the kitchen as well as for my camping kit. I'm really anxious to get my Camillus/Fisk Bowie though. Please tell us it's ahead of schedule!, Regards, Mike
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
I am about as impressed as I have ever been with the release of a new knife from any manufacturer, ever. I love Jerry's bowies and this knife looks like it is going to do Jerry proud. What a stunning achievement.