Overemphasis of Trapping in JKD

Hello Escrimador1,
It was probably me that made the comment. Just a personal opinion.

I'm not sure what point you are making in this post, could you clarify? I havent read the article you refer to.

Please be assured that I'm not being defensive or confrontational here, I'm just curious as to what you have to say. The above post is not very clear as to what your point is.
 
I don't think that anyone but the general public thinks that JKD is trapping oriented. All the JKD instructors and practioners I personally know use trapping as a tool: no more no less. The trade publications ( they get great milage out of Bruce Lee and JKD stories and controversies)and those that don't use trapping at all seem to feel that because it is discussed and practiced that its too much..
The article states the JKD idea that trapping is to be used as a tool not a fighting style unto itself..
just MHO...
 
Thanks Escrimador1. I just stumbled a bit on the title of the post, and thought that there was some point in the article relating to the idea of "overemphasis of trapping in JKD."

When I made the remark (I can't speak for anyone else who may have made the same remark), it was in response to a thread on Vunak's videos. I should have qualified the statement by stating that trapping is often overemphasized in JKD books and videos. I would not speak for JKD schools, because I've never been to one. I have been to Dan Inosanto seminars, read most of the books, and I know and have trained with people who have trained with Inosanto, Vunak, Cucci, Gibson, Bustillo, and others. I know the leading idea of JKD is being well rounded through all ranges. I've just repeatedly encountered statements to the effect that JKD's strength was its aknowledgment of "Trapping Range." If you go back over all the JKD-related magazine articles, etc, I think you will find a dispropotionate amount of material related to trapping.

When JKD recently re-splashed with the availibility of videos, The Bruce Lee Library, and the JKD/Jun Fan Nucleus, the intricacies of trapping werent fully appreciated by the "general public", so the buzz was kind of on trapping. Simliar to the grappling phenomenon which followed when people were made aware of the intricacies of grappling by the Gracies and the UFC thing.
Following the Gracies, I think a lot of people placed an exagerrated significance on grappling. I just recall a lot of people saying (after UFC) that "its going to go to the ground, it always goes to the ground." Maybe in the ring, but not in the parking lot.

This is just based on impressions from people I have observed, known, magazines, internet, seminars, etc. You know, wherever you encounter anyone who would have an opinion on it one way or another.

Somewhere Vunak states that TRAINING should be 90% trapping and 10% striking, but FIGHTING should be 90% striking and 10% trapping. He was speaking figurativly of course.

I have witnessed a number of 'street' fights, and been in a couple myself. I have just never observed any elaborate cross-arm traps, or prolonged grappling. I do think its better to overtrain. But when I said that JKD/Wing Chun overemphasizes trapping, I was also referring to highly refined training such as chi sao, which cultivates fine motor skills. The kind of fine motor skills that fly out the window under the stress, speed, and violence of a real fight.

My feelings about elaborate trapping drills are similar to what Eric Knauss expresses about elaborate siniwali drills. In the field, its going to get plowed through by a more powerful, direct, and aggressive opponant.

I personally like trapping, and training in trapping exercizes like hubud (sinawali too), its fun and useful for exploiting body mechanics out of a flow. But its not something that I feel is as overly important as speed and power. If it appears at all in real life, it is simple, fleeting, and transitional.

I don't consider myself a JKD guy, but I have a lot of respect for it. I think it is one of the best commercially available fighting arts around. ABSOLUTELY no disrespect is intended here. Just throwing out an observation for discussion, I usually get enlightened in some way by others responses, thats why I bother to post here at all.

[This message has been edited by James Sass (edited 30 December 1999).]
 
i personally investigated trapping types of strategy about 10 years ago with wing chun people and jeet kune do people, and i came away almost empty handed. i do feel against the traditional hard style -karate, tkd, art like that- trapping is valuable because of how they punch. but the kind of punchings you see on the street, wither a jab or a "haymaker, the trap is not very effective (maybe a simultaneous block and return is, but i dont call that trappings). today, in my school we get people with kenpo or jkd backgrounds all the time, and instead of try to change their mind about different kinds of strategy, i have them spar a lot, and usually they end up dropping this kind of practice anyway or they continue getting beat up.

imho, when you shift your practice from practicing technique to using it in the match, we automatically de-emophasize trapping anyway. perhaps the jkd people you see in those articles are still at the "stand still so i can show you" stage.
 
This concept is summed up very eloquently in a Dog Brothers Rambling Ruminations on their website. This is also covered in Tape #6 in the final interview.

The main thrust is that trapping may not come out all of the time nor is it visible. But training in trapping trains you for motions that you use to win fights. IT makes sense that Vunak says in training 90% trapping, 10% striking and in fighting the other way around. By learning, trapping, youse set up and make your strikes possible.

A lot of concepts in the FMA do not seem to be very useful in an actual fight but teach you skills that allow you to deliver your blows. They train motions that protect you and set up shots.

Trapping is the same way. It trains you to protect youself while breaking in to an opponents defenses so you can deliver you strikes.

Jason
 
I am not sure what you guys mean when you refer to trapping. Are you talking about the traps themselves like pak sao or lop soa type techniques or the range itself. Vunak teaches his students that thier main objective in a fight is to get to trapping range. Not so we can do a lop soa or pak soa but so we can use the head butt, the elbow, the knee and eye gouging to take a guy out of commission. The only time we use a lop or pak is if we get an obstruction entering with a Straight Blast and sometimes not even then. It is amazing how quickly some one will drop thier hands after you knee them in the groin. (to parphrase Paul)

I hope I have not confused anyone with my ramblings.
 

Come on guys we're missing an obvious point: Trapping is fun. So if you study JKD would you rather do half an hour of trapping or half an hour of full power roundhouse kicks on the heavy bag?

Pete Kautz posted on another thread that he worked on ground techniqes precisely because unlike trapping techniques, he DIDN't enjoy them, but knew he had to master them. Words to the wise!

Ironically, trapping is not overemphasized in most "old time" WC schools I've seen. They KNOW they have to get a hit in first or angle off, or both, especially against larger

(Trapping against a brick-breaking Shotokan powerpunch blitzer? Or a 300lbs Steroid/Frankenstein wrestler? Good luck.)

orcommitted or commitable opponents. Of course, it all depends on your JKD instructor, not on the style itself.
---------------------------------------------
To Donna and all forumites:

Millenium dulci fruimini!
(Have a nice millenium)
 
I was at a seminar with Burton Richardson once and I asked him about this. I basically said that in all the UFCs and other "reality" events I had seen there was very little to no trapping involved. Everything seems to go straight from striking to grappling. He agreed with me and said that's why he basically no longer puts much emphasis on trapping in his JKD curriculum. For what its worth......

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
That's interesting but if one doesn't study trapping or a similar close quarters concept, how do you think NHB fighters are able to break in from striking to grappling so effectively while others aren't and get pummeled?

Jason
 
What is this about boxers being hard to trap? I have found that the style of guards preferred by Modern Western Sport Boxing leave one's hands too close together and make it easier to trap both hands with one move! Also the narrowness of the guard and stance of Modern Western Sport Boxing make it easier to Zulu an opponent and take their back. I don't know if this is conventional Wing Chun trapping I'm talking about, I don't have all that much experience in that area. However, I have found that the traps I mentioned work sparring a boxer, and also that boxing techniques do not work well at all sparring a Wing Chun practitioner. Note that in both cases I said sparring, I do not know if the same things would happen in a real fight, but it is food for thought.

I think the biggest disadvantages of a JKD methodology are the concepts of a kicking range and power-side-forward stance. I do not think that there is an actual distinct kicking range separate from a punching range. I think there is a striking range in which arms and legs are used in concert. I do not think that the length difference between one's upper and lower limbs is enough to merit separate ranges, I think these limbs should be used at the same range in combination to attack upper and lower body targets. I think that fighting power-side-forward all the time like JKD leaves the power-side without its full leverage and too likely to be trapped. I don't advocate fighting weak-side forward all the time either, I try to train both sides equally.
 
a boxer, especially his stance is not easy to trap his hands. if that was the case they would do it all the time. a kind of trapping is use but we call it "tying up his hands" when you are clinching. you cannot do it from an outside position unless you are fighting a man who has not learn to jab.
 
I don't know what would give anyone the impression that a boxer is easy to trap. I quess a good "trapper" could get anyone. But in my experience, the boxer is the least likely to be trapped. Sure the hands are closer together than some when in a guard position, but they don't stay that way for long. :-) They will soon be raining punches from multiple angles. This makes them very difficult to trap. Narrow stance? Not really....its a mobile platform. Boxing not working against Wing Chun? I've done both, and that's not at all what I have found in my experience. Sounds like its possible the boxing you have been exposed to was not that great. :-) If you are going to compare with boxing, it should be with someone that does it as a martial art, not the typical guy from the gym.

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!
 
I would like to state that in JKD we do not always fight power side forward, at least not in Vu's JKD we don't.

Against a good boxer trapping is very hard to pull off. The reasons for this is because he is always moving and when ever you try to enter he is sticking a jab in your face. That is why in PFS JKD we equate almost all our techniques against the boxer. As Vu would say if you can enter on a professional boxer everyone else is quite easy.

Someone mentioned that most people are not familiar with trapping range. This is one of the main reasons Vu stresses it so much. There are 1000s of boxers, kickboxers and grapplers out there but few few people specialize in trapping range. From trapping range the three most devasting strikes can be delivered, the headbutt, knee and elbow.

Decado
 
jrf,

Thanks for pointing that out. I don;t actually study trapping but the kali I study emphasizes close quarters and has very slight similarities to trapping. I agree that not many people learn to devastate from very close with close elbows (not the ones delivered from across the room), hacks and short shovel, hook and uppercut punches. This can be extremely effective even before the opponent breaks into grappling range.

As for the ability to trap boxers, this is difficult to nigh impossible. THE most you can do to a jab is deflect it or intercept/tap it or treat all of the same jabs a one jab. Boxers have superior footwork to most martial artists that is highly dynamic. It is very difficult for a WC person who is restricted by rigid centerline theory to keep up with someone who moves so fast, effectively and attacks from so many different angles.

Jason
 
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