Ownership costs of older European cars (BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, etc.) ?

Sid Post · Dec 22, 2003

I've been looking around the 'net, but I really haven't found anything yet that talks about ownership costs of European cars. If you have a good link to a forum or website, I would appreciate a pointer to the resource.

I have looked off and on at the various Mercedes, BMW, and Volvo cars for a long time. I ocasionally have looked at other brands as well. I have owned a VW Golf and VW Jetta and was impressed with the overall quality of the car at its pricepoint, especially compared to American makes in the same market segment. Back then, economy was the name of the game so, a Mercedes or BMW were totally out of my reach financially.

Now, I am about 12 to 24 months away from making my next car purchase and I am looking at cars that are much safer after being rear ended 3 times in an 6 year period (the last one occured when I stopped for a school bus on my way into work and the policeman behind me didn't).

As I look at safety features and the joy of driving a superior car, I am thinking I want a car that handles better then what I typically find in American sedans. A car the handles well is a safety feature in itself in that it may allow me to drive out of a problem if I see it coming. Of course, power to accelerate and great brakes are assumed. Now as I look at things like side curtain airbags (in addition to "normal" air bags), whiplash protection, dynamic stabilty control, and crumple zones for good ratings and survivability in real world crashs, I find myself looking at primarily the premium European and Japanese makes.

These cars, when new, start in the low to mid-$30's. That is more money then I really want to spend on a car unless I really need to in order to get into a "good" "safe" car. As I look at older (used) European sedans, I think I can find several makes and models of "premium" sedans that would meet my desires. What I am concerned about is the relative affordability due to high potential maintanence costs, and parts availability in addition to basic qualified service.

Things that would be a definite deal killer would be things like:
$2,000 alternator replacements
No factory parts availability
No being "able" to do "most" basic service due to computers, odd tools, or lack of knowledge (I grew up on a farm so, I have good basic mechanic skills)

I have run across some Mercedes 300 series sedans that were contenders, and I recently found a BMW 840 that was in imacculate condition for a 1994 car with ~75K miles for ~$20K (the temptation for that one passed

).

Where should I go to do my research? The thought of having a premium sedan is very inticing but, common sense needs to prevail. I know these cars are capable of service lives well beyond American makes so, the fact it will have some miles on it is not a turn off as such.

kinzli · Dec 22, 2003

Sid, I can't speak for any given hard data that you might find out there on a specific car, but I can give you some basic info about a car we have.

My wife has a Mercedes '89 190E. She got it from her mom when we got married, and her mom had bought it used a few years before. It hasn't been thrashed, but it hasn't been babied either.

When we first got it, we thought it was a roach, tons of problems, always a $500 brake job, $1000 valve job, you name it, we were paying about $1000 a quarter on maintenance. After the 3rd or 4th big repair bill I started seeing the pattern. I'm a gear head, but don't even attempt to mess with my wife's car

But anyhow, it was the shop that was screwing the pooch on this one and either making things go wrong, or finding and repairing things that weren't really going wrong. On one occasion, an oil consumption problem was traced to the wrong sized valve seals that they had installed. Lots of things like that. Since then, we've found a good mechanic and have had zero problems in the past few years besides normal maintenance.

So, having had numerous cars, both American and Japanese, I'd say that the MBZ is no more expensive than any of my other cars, and maybe cheaper. The mechanic we see now (also a friend) says that the car is in great shape and should easily see 200k miles (we're at 140k now). I've got no reason not to believe him, he's a long-time MBZ shop and very trustworthy. Mercedes, and BMWs too, are both built very well and should continue to give you good service for many years.

I hope your luck is as good as ours has been...

BTW, I'm an equal-opportunity car driver, I own 2 american cars now, wifey has the MBZ, and we're going to buy her a new Mazda RX8 pretty soon I think, so we've got most auto-making continents covered

fishbulb · Dec 22, 2003

Although general mechanical reliability is good on most premium imports, electrial gremlins can be an unpleasant and expensive problem that crop up fairly frequently in upper-class vehicles.

I have known more than a couple people who found that it was easier and cheaper to sell off or trade in their luxury car after they started experiencing serious inexplicable electrical issues. Some were bad enough to make the car inoperable, but the majority were just annoying. For example, my friend had a late nineties Benz (don't know the model) where you had to choose whether you wanted to have to CD player or the headlights turned on, because they would not work at the same time. Several trips to the MB dealership did not selve the problem and he wound up getting rid of the car.

I can just imagine the expense when something that controls almost every facet of the vehicle, like a BMW i-Drive computer, starts going haywire.

If I were you I would try to find a car that is in good shape and has the features you want, but try not to get a bunch of complex electronic add-ons that you really don't need.

Also, you may want to take a look at the Lincoln LS. I know you seem to have a dislike for doemstics, but that really is a great midsize luxo-sport sedan that can be had for quite a bit less than comparable imports.

docgra · Dec 22, 2003

Give serious consideration to a 3-5 yr-old. The purchase price is roughly half that of a new model. Ask to see maintance records;
no records, no sale! Consider a vehicle that was leased. My '91 Volvo wagon (turbo) is still smooth @ 145,000 mi. Good Luck!

Sid Post · Dec 23, 2003

Also, you may want to take a look at the Lincoln LS.

I like the Lincoln LS in general, and I don't really consider it a domestic like a I do a lot of other models. As I understand its development, I believe it has a lot of common hardware and parts from the newer Jaguar's (which in the past haven't had a reputation for reliability

).

Ford specifically seems to have developed (or purchased

) stronger ties with non-domestic makes and is benefitting from that in terms of reliability, style, and functionality in everyday life. I have had a lot of bad personal experience with GM products in the past. While I believe GM has significantly improved their products in terms of reliability and quality, once bitten, twice shy. Dodge seems to be an up and coming maker with improved products and quality. With the new Dodge/Mercedes connection, they may be the manufacturer of choice in the future.

Although general mechanical reliability is good on most premium imports, electrial gremlins can be an unpleasant and expensive problem that crop up fairly frequently in upper-class vehicles.

With GM vehicles, I have found that they have a tendancy to rub the wiring harness and short things out (among other issues) when you get some miles on them (less then 100K

). Electrical items can get expensive - everything from power windows and power seats to computers for ABS brakes, fuel injection, etc. I had not considered electrical gremlins but, faulty engineering and construction of all those gadgets could be maddening in addition to being expensive.

Consider a vehicle that was leased.

I hadn't really been thinking about that specifically but, I must say it makes sense. With a premium lease car returned to the dealer, they should have the maintanence records for the car to prove it wasn't neglected. That should help avoid hidden issues that are easily avoided with proper oil changes and service checks. With the low interest rates and agressive new car sales, the lease return market in a year or two should be pretty good.

SPHayes · Dec 23, 2003

I drive a 87 BMW 535 w/ 350,000 miles. I spend around $600 dollars a year on repairs. If any single bill tops $1,000 I will part the car out and buy another like it. Just my two cents.

Ron Andersen · Dec 23, 2003

I read an article about 10 years back in either Road & Track or Car & Driver regarding a topic similar to this. The article centered around used exotics of relatively affordable prices. Coming to mind on the list were cars like 10-year-old Vettes, Jaguars (XJS), Porches, & Benzs (SL500). Though these cars could be purchased for $10,000-20,000 (in their 10-year-old state), the maintenance figures scared the crap out of me. I think it was either the Benz or Jaguar that had an estimated $10,000 transmission overhaul price!

marcangel · Dec 23, 2003

1983 Turbodiesel 300D, 595,000+ miles on it and pretty much abused the last 4 years and 60,000 miles. Oil changes and routine maintenance. A couple of A/C compressors, belts, etc. Other than that, NO unexpected repair or maintenance issues. Certified MB mechs are $65 in a dealer and $40 if independant. Cheapest car I ever owned, to run. It's still running!!!! (But I drive my '99 ML 320 daily here in the country.

cockroachfarm · Dec 23, 2003

Originally posted by Ron Andersen
I read an article about 10 years back in either Road & Track or Car & Driver regarding a topic similar to this. The article centered around used exotics of relatively affordable prices. Coming to mind on the list were cars like 10-year-old Vettes, Jaguars (XJS), Porches, & Benzs (SL500). Though these cars could be purchased for $10,000-20,000 (in their 10-year-old state), the maintenance figures scared the crap out of me. I think it was either the Benz or Jaguar that had an estimated $10,000 transmission overhaul price!

I think I remember a similar article. It mentioned the BMW 850iA I was driving at the time - and the $26,000 price tag to rebuild the engine! Like I keep telling my son, "It's not that difficult to get the money together to run a used Porsche, BMW, or Benz. It's the cost of *keeping* it running that separates the men from their wallets. I remember the cost of replacing the water pump on my Porswche 928 - just a tad over C$975, without labor! Due to a long history of automotive idiocy, I always have friends and acquaintances asking me about buying this used "bargain" BMW or that used "bargain" Mercedes. My answer is always the same: 1. check out the cost of replacments parts like brake pads, water pumps, alternators, etc. and 2. pay whatever it costs to have the car checked out by a *competent* mechanic who is familiar with the marque.

Good hunting!

Hotrod · Dec 23, 2003

One thing... Dont expect anything older then 1980 to have factory support when it comes to parts! Auto parts stores... NAPA and the like will become your friends.

Unless you are doing the work, which in that case the only thing that would be different on these import models then their American made brothers is the price of parts. Considering that a high end cars starting price is qutie a bit higher then a lesser car... the parts market also exploits you even when they have reached their 20th birthday!

On European made cars, you need to make sure that the basics are there... engine is operational... transmission works flawlessly, and that you have a useable car in the relatively long term forceable future. If this is not the case... and you have restricted your purchase ideas only to the import market, I suggest that you find a relatively high miles late model honda/toyota. A good place for this would be the auto auctions... most every local has one, and where they are, there are people willing to find your car for around 500 dollars. Saving the costs of buying from a dealer who would mark up from the wholesale value you'd be buying.

Although I dont particularly like imports... they hold their value quite well... last quite a long time... and provide decent gasmilage in the use of just transportation.

Old or late model... it really doesnt matter if the two cars are in the same condition, when buying used have a trusted mechanic go through the car!

moss · Dec 26, 2003

You didn't really give a price range, but one of my favorite cars of all time is the 89-91 BMW 325is. I don't own one, and I've only driven one once on a test drive (it wasn't in very good shape), but I am very familiar with the car and wouldn't hesitate to buy one in decent shape.
Here's why I like it:

Good gas mileage, ~25-30 mpg
Bulletproof engine - typically lasts to 250K miles with "spirited" driving, more if driven gently (change the timing belts often though!)
Handles well - has a limited slip diff, good weight balance
Good power to weight ratio - it's not the fastest car in the world, but it is fast enough for me (170hp)
Good transmission - the 5 speed Getrag is tough.
All around, a very well-designed car. I also love the styling; a no-nonsense driving machine.

It's easy to pick one up for around $2500 in decent shape. The car is simple enough that you can work on it yourself. I've been working on putting a 325i engine into my 1976 BMW 2002, and it is an easy engine to work on. I've replaced the head gasket, water pump, timing belt, and a bunch of other stuff with no problems.

Parts for the 325i in general do not seem any more expensive than parts for American cars. There are a few exceptions, but it's not like driving a brand new BMW where an oil change will make a huge dent in your pocket. The only notable exception I can think of is that the distributor cap costs about $45. There are plenty of places to buy parts on the net, and lots of message boards to help you out if you get stuck.

My next favorite car is a mid-eighties Volvo 240. If you can't tell, I like boxy cars.

A friend of mine had one of these, and the clutch stopped working. He drove it for a few months with no clutch, and you could hear him coming - vrrrroooom, CRUNCH, vroooom, CRUNCH, vrooom, CRUNCH. Talk about a tough transmission. The engine is equally bulletproof. Go to brickboard.com and look at the mileage polls - you regularly see cars at 600-800K! This car isn't as fun as the 325is, but it will go forever with little maintenance and is super-cheap. I had a chance to pick one up last year in excellent shape for $400, but I missed it by about 2 hours.

My third favorite car is a Delorean DMC12. Just because it looks cool. It's tied with an '88 BMW M5. Both are high-cost, high-maintenance for what they are.

Your car tastes may not be the same as mine, but I hope that helps. First post, BTW.
-Ben

marcangel · Dec 26, 2003

Hotrod, I beg to differ with you on the MB marque. There are plenty of old Benzes getting dealer service, and not just the old 300 series either. (M-B ran basically the same model for over 15 years). There are many 70's and 80's vintage S and SL class Benzes that are serviced by dealers. I can't speak for BMW, Porsche or the rest, but Mercedes supports the product for a very long time. In part they can do this because the only produce a few different types of engines, and even within an engine family, many parts are interchangable, similar to the old Detroit Diesels (53,71, and 92 series).

Hotrod · Dec 27, 2003

... right, but you still pay for the new car dealership mechanic fee...

500 dollar slap on the bumper to pull it in

Your quite right that their are many cars out their with extremely high miles, but when buying used you have to find one that is maintained. Oil changed religiously and kept in tip top operating condition.

marcangel · Dec 27, 2003

Also that is not true. As I stated earlier, M-B service fees run about $65 an hour at the dealer and a certified M-B mechanic running his own shop (they ARE out there, in the Phila. area, I STRONGLY recommend M-B Service by Joe Taylor, in Rockledge) is about $45/hr. Most of the M-B shops are competitive, in a given geographic area. Charges are actually set by the factory. A certified M-B mechanic MUST be able to perform X task in Y time, so there is little, if any "bill padding" with M-B. A reputable, certified M-B shop works very similar to today's auto body shop, everyone KNOWS how much time it takes to perform a certain job (they have an online database) so that's what it costs, period, end, stop. Also, 1-800-FORMERC is a service that is good for the LIFE OF THE CAR! Valid for my '83 300D and my '99 and '00 ML 320s. It's a nice thing to have when you have a wife with 2 kids driving a 250 mile stretch without you.

Hotrod · Dec 28, 2003

Must be a local thing... MB's arent real well represented, you can take them to the foriegn car place that caters to everything from lambos and ferraris... or to the dealership. The people that I know that have them (wide spread years...) arent exactly car people, but they are getting crushed by the price of repairs.

Probably just my part of the state... but thats how its been as long as I can remember