PA & DE laws, carrying neck knife/small FB while jogging

[theyoungone]

A good female friend of mine, who lives in Pennsylvania near the border with the state of Delaware , loves to run. The problem is she has been having issue with some "shady characters" recently, and she is asking me for opinions on some small fixed blades for self defense. She wants to carry something like a Ka-bar TDI or a BK-14 clipped to the waistbandof her shorts under her shirt or a neck knife again under her shirt. She runs a route that is a mix of wooded trails, country roads and suburban neighborhood streets that winds thru PA (not Philly, but Delaware & Chester county PA) and DE, and she just wants something that she can quickly pull and use if some guy grabs her and tries to drag her in the woods to rape her.

Is it legal for her to do this?

 

[GatorFlash1]

She has bigger problems.

 

[richard thurman]

A good female friend of mine, who lives in Pennsylvania near the border with the state of Delaware , loves to run. The problem is she has been having issue with some "shady characters" recently, and she is asking me for opinions on some small fixed blades for self defense. She wants to carry something like a Ka-bar TDI or a BK-14 clipped to the waistbandof her shorts under her shirt or a neck knife again under her shirt. She runs a route that is a mix of wooded trails, country roads and suburban neighborhood streets that winds thru PA (not Philly, but Delaware & Chester county PA) and DE, and she just wants something that she can quickly pull and use if some guy grabs her and tries to drag her in the woods to rape her.

Is it legal for her to do this?

I would tell her to call your DA office and ask them what the law says.

 

[glistam]

In PA she's fine with just about anything as long as it's not automatic or banned by city law. DE if it's concealed, it has to be a folder under 3 inches long. If it's exposed (such as a neck knife worn outside the clothing, it's legal. Yes there is such a thing as a folding neck knife btw.

I must repeat my usual warning: Knives are the "self-defense weapons of schmucks." What I mean by that is they seem to be unusually popular as defense weapons among people with zero combat/defense training, much less edged-weapon training. Training is extremely important with knives compared to other weapons because they have severe limitations in effectiveness and rather serious liability (if the BG dies, she could be collared for murder). They have their place, and can be effective, but it is on her to learn how.

 

[Straight shooter]

In Title 18 of the PA Crimes Code(908) there is a section called, "Prohibited Offensive Weapons". It's quite vague and allows a lot of room for interpretation. If what you are carrying has no clearly defined common lawful purpose(Self defense not being one of them) it can be classified as a P.O.W The last part of the definition as noted below is the real tricky part. There was a criminal case in PA not to long ago which involved what was most likely a TDI carried by a non-LEO. An "expert" witness for the prosecution who was no more than a knife shop owner, testified that the knife in question had no other purpose than stabbing another. I am unsure as to all of the circumstances surrounding the defendant but the simple fact is that the noted section is very open to interoperation and at least in PA it is best to avoid purpose driven knives.

"Offensive weapons." Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or other electronic or electric weapon or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.

 

[glistam]

In Title 18 of the PA Crimes Code(908) there is a section called, "Prohibited Offensive Weapons". It's quite vague and allows a lot of room for interpretation. If what you are carrying has no clearly defined common lawful purpose(Self defense not being one of them) it can be classified as a P.O.W The last part of the definition as noted below is the real tricky part. There was a criminal case in PA not to long ago which involved what was most likely a TDI carried by a non-LEO. An "expert" witness for the prosecution who was no more than a knife shop owner, testified that the knife in question had no other purpose than stabbing another. I am unsure as to all of the circumstances surrounding the defendant but the simple fact is that the noted section is very open to interoperation and at least in PA it is best to avoid purpose driven knives.

"Offensive weapons." Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or other electronic or electric weapon or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.

Yes indeed, that was Commonwealth v Lawson from 2008. www.pacourts.us/assets/opinions/Superior/out/a13032_09.pdf

Lawson actually didn't have a TDI, but rather what appears to be a gaudy Chinese-made fantasy knife with a finger ring and moving blade that can be rotated into a 90 degree position. It is clearly designed as a punch-dagger. Of particular note is this line from the closing:

Lawson also argues that self-defense is his common lawful purpose for carrying the knife. Under the definition suggested by Lawson, any weapon could be used for self-defense, and the purpose of the statute would be nullified. Moreover, the intent of the actor has been specifically held to be irrelevant with respect to analysis of the elements of section 908(c).

Keep in mind that 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 908 bans "Prohibited Offensive Weapons" from even being owned in the home though this is largely unenforceable when it relates to knives. Police in PA do not necessarily go looking for illegal knives unless you do something to warrant them patting you down. Lawson was only charged because he was getting a fistfight in public and creating a scene serious enough that someone called the cops while carrying this knife.

 

[Straight shooter]

Thanks for the citation. The Law Office in question that sent out a quarterly newsletter regarding this case did not provide specific details on the knife but described it in general terms. But what is unfortunate is other knives, Karambits, TDI and the like could easily fall under this guideline. It does not sound that Lawson provided any rebuttal expert witness's on his behalf which I am sure did not help his case.

Also, on a side note in so much as exceptions there may have been case law concerning exceptions for ownership. I do not recall the details on that particular case but it involved a subject who had in possession/used an Automatic knife. I recall the subject claimed to be a collector and his defense focused in on this area:

(b) Exceptions.--
(1) It is a defense under this section for the defendant
to prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed or
dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic
performance, or that, with the exception of a bomb, grenade
or incendiary device, he complied with the National Firearms
Act (26 U.S.C. § 5801 et seq.), or that he possessed it
briefly in consequence of having found it or taken it from an
aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any
intent or likelihood that the weapon would be used
unlawfully.

Yes indeed, that was Commonwealth v Lawson from 2008. www.pacourts.us/assets/opinions/Superior/out/a13032_09.pdf

Lawson actually didn't have a TDI, but rather what appears to be a gaudy Chinese-made fantasy knife with a finger ring and moving blade that can be rotated into a 90 degree position. It is clearly designed as a punch-dagger. Of particular note is this line from the closing:



Keep in mind that 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 908 bans "Prohibited Offensive Weapons" from even being owned in the home though this is largely unenforceable when it relates to knives. Police in PA do not necessarily go looking for illegal knives unless you do something to warrant them patting you down. Lawson was only charged because he was getting a fistfight in public and creating a scene serious enough that someone called the cops while carrying this knife.