PA knife law confusion

S

SimpleMan91

Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
7
Hello, I'm new here and new to knives in general.

I just bought a new Browning (3 inch blade) folding knife that was going to be my EDC knife. But after reading some stuff (that completely contradict one another) I'm sort of confused about whats legal and illegal.

Here; http://knife-expert.com/pa.txt it says something about offensive weapons are prohibited. Including knives.
But I've been reading on different websites about there not being any laws except for switchblades being completely illegal and you can't carry in the obvious locations (courthouse, schools and government buildings). Which is understandable.
But I also read that some stores, public property, private property and bars/clubs could give you trouble. Is this true?
I understand if someone is acting suspicious or acting like a fool, it could be a cause for concern. But is it common for this stuff to happen to the average person?

It also says it has to have lawful purpose. Which, to me, doesn't make sense. I mean, if I carry a flashlight in the middle of the day, does it have a purpose? No. Will it come in handy later? Probably.
And what is offensive vs defensive? It's a pocket knife... It depends what the person is doing/intends to do with it. I personally don't look at it as either. It's just a tool.
I mean, I wouldn't even think twice if I saw someone walking down the road with a chainsaw. Even after seeing the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Because it's a tool. Lol.
So where's the line between offensive, defensive and just simply a tool?

I've also read that hunting knives are legal to own and carry. Then I read somewhere else that it's illegal unless you're actually hunting. Which brings up more confusion... Define hunting knife. What is a ”hunting knife"?
My knife is made by a hunting company. Is it a hunting knife or just a pocket knife?

And lastly, my knife came with a sheath that I can wear on my belt. Which makes it visible to everyone.
Is it the more “professional" way to carry? Or is best left out of sight, out of mind?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm just really confused.. And honestly some times the laws are written/worded so weird (like the link above). I feel like a need to be a lawyer just to understand it.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me.
 
Hi and Welcome to Bladeforums!

I'm just to the south in Maryland and frequent PA to visit relatives. I think I can cover your questions if I take it from the top.

PA laws are somewhat difficult to interpret at first glances due to the strange way they phrase the statute. Title 18, Section 908 is the important part. Sections 912 and 913 deal with K-12 schools (not colleges) and courthouses, but I'll skip those unless you want to know.

§ 908 makes the possession of an "offensive weapon" a crime, with some exceptions. Note I said "possession," not carry. The state law actually considers the matter of carry, including whether openly or concealed, to be irrelevant. Either the knife is illegal or it's not. The tricky part is, what is an "offensive weapon." 908 defines it thus:

"Offensive weapons." Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or other electronic or electric weapon or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.
Click to expand...

The bolded words are important as they refer to bladed instruments. A frequently mistake made by numerous armchair lawyers on the internet is thinking these are separate items being listed, when in fact the statute is actually lumping them together under one very important distinction. A more logical way they should have written it is like this
"Offensive weapons."
Any:
  1. dagger
  2. knife
  3. razor or
  4. cutting instrument
the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise
Click to expand...
In other words, it only applies to automatics, not fixed blades or manually operated folders. It may possibly apply to spring-assisted knives, but that remains untested waters legally speaking, unless someone can quote a case I don't know about.

However, there is another key phrase in the definition which is "or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose." This is a broad, catch-all term and it has been applied to non-automatic knives. Originally in the 1970's, they applied a test related to the circumstances of the possession, but this was later struck down in the state supreme court. Now the test is whether the knife in question has a legal, non-weapon use. It's not the circumstances, but rather whether the knife is only designed to kill people and is not intended for anything else.

Commonwealth v. Artis in 1980 ruled that a 7" bladed folding fillet knife was not an offensive weapon, even though the defendant waved it around threatening people in a bar. This was because a fillet knife is primarily designed for a sporting use.

Commonwealth v. Karlson in 1996 also ruled that the court has to prove that a non-automatic knives is a weapon that "serves no common lawful purpose." Karlson was selling fixed blade knives with spiked knuckle-guards, which arguably don't have a common lawful purpose, but, this case established firmly that the burden lies with the state to prove this.

Commonwealth v. Lawson in 2009 ruled that a knife design wherein it's a fixed blade normally but the blade can be folded down into a punch-dagger orientation serves no common lawful purpose, and found Lawson guilty. The case includes a photo of his knife which you can clearly see was not intended for anything else other than as a weapon. This case also ruled that "self-defense" is not a valid "lawful purpose" because the court felt that would invalidate the entire point of the law in the first place.

There is a alleged cased called Commonwealth v. Alvarez in 2007, where it ruled that a replica battle axe has no common lawful purpose, and thus is an illegal "offensive weapon." However, I could not find any proof this case is real when checking the PA court system. It does make sense though based on other rulings, especially if the axe was carried by an individual acting suspiciously in public.

The point of all this is that non-automatic knives that have an obvious non-weapon purpose are legal to own and carry under state law. Knives specifically designed for use as weapons, and automatics, are not. § 908 does contain an exception for possession an offensive weapon as a curio, though this generally means keeping it at home purely as decoration or in a safe.

One thing to remember is that some cities have tighter laws on knives, like Philadelphia.

Because the law doesn't care whether you carry openly or concealed, you're probably better off carrying concealed unless you are doing something that needs it to be out where you can reach easily. Open carry is in essentially an invitation to anyone you meet, cop or civilian, to try and interpret the law, and they might very well be wrong. I go into this a bit more in this essay I wrote years ago: http://weaponlaws.wikidot.com/start

Hope I covered everything!
 
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Thank you for all the information.
So from what I'm understanding, automatic/offensive knives are illegal possess in any way, no matter what.
But manual and fixed are legal to own and carry.

As far as open or concealed.
I do like carrying on my belt for comfortability. But I understand what your saying and thats what I was thinking to. Which is why I asked.

And I did hear about Philadelphia being more strict. I'm from western Pa, near Pittsburgh. So I shouldn't have an issue there. Plus I hardly ever go to the city unless I need to. But its good to know. I heard some towns are like that too.
 
yakdung said:
See #2 on the list:
http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=282
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that's just Philadelphia. Which I have never been to. I live way on the other side of Pa. So I shouldn't have an issue.
I don't see myself going there any time soon. Unless I had a reason. And if I did, I just have to remember not to carry. Which is fine. Like I said, I'm no where near there. As long as the whole state of PA isn't like that. Lol.

They have pretty strict gun laws too. At least that's what I'm told...
 
I've been several times, but don't plan to return.

Maryland is not so bad with regard to knives. We can own any knife without exception, can carry any knife openly, even autos or swords, and can conceal-carry any non-auto folder no matter the design or size. The downside is we're one of the last holdouts on the national trend with handgun permits, which are only available to guards, the wealthy, and the already dead.
 
Wow that's awesome. But that sucks for hand gun owners.
I was reading that PA might change their knife laws to something similar as that. I dont know if its rumors though. I wish they would.

I'm not sure what the laws are here on firearms. I think rifles and handguns are legal to own without permits or registration.
You do need a permit to carry handgun. As far as rifles, that's where it gets kind of vague because i don't think you need a permit. But I heard if your driving somewhere with it (range, camp, hunting) it has to be away from the ammo (preferably in a case) and it has to be a direct route to and from your location to your destination.
But, I'm not positive. These are just things I've picked up online and from talking to people. And it usually varies from site to site and person to person. But I don't think we're as bad as some states.
Philadelphia has its own laws though, just like knives.
 
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