Pair of unknown Dirks/daggers/trench knives????

H

Herb Walsh

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Nov 5, 2006
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Can anyone identify these? The blades are square, 12" long, tapering to a point. Original grips were wood. Hand guards are hand hammered brass. The blades differ between the two relative to their clocking in the hand guard. Here is a photo, thanks.
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They look like "main gauches" or parrying dirks/daggers. Whether they are originally vintage or relatively recently made is beyond me.:D
 
By jove, I think you are right; parrying daggers. I will research along that thought. They are old and not something recent. Thanks for the lead.
 
Herb Walsh said:
Yes, I see that too. Thanks.
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Maybe yours are prototypes or modified in the field?
I like the wider guard in yours which reminds me of the Patton saber. Definitely something I'd do if the wider footprint wouldn't make me get stuck everywhere, carrying it on the hip.
 
Could they be broken or cut down practice swords.

This is a late 19th century US Navy practice cutlass. It is not a match but it does share the solid business-like build.
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This is a german set of 19th century practice swords
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I would guees they are WW I. Probably fashioned from broken cavalry sabers or even officer sabers. The blades could be any sharpend piece of steel. They would be deadly in close quarter fighting in a trench. The square blade was favored for piercing armor and not getting stuck like a blade. The troops were always making hand to hand weapons in the trenches. Just my 2 cents.
 
USACelt said:
I would guees they are WW I. Probably fashioned from broken cavalry sabers or even officer sabers. The blades could be any sharpend piece of steel. They would be deadly in close quarter fighting in a trench. The square blade was favored for piercing armor and not getting stuck like a blade. The troops were always making hand to hand weapons in the trenches. Just my 2 cents.
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I am thinking that also since they are not factory or arsenal made they may be "one of a kind" or very few. Perhaps another "Cottage Industry" in WW1 France. They are hand made and not duplicates. The inside of the brass guards you can see the hammer dents where they were beat out and formed. I have looked in all my books and all over the internet and can not find anything like them which again, they may be too few of them to catalog. One of a kind as I mentioned earlier the square blades are clocked 45 degrees difference between the two and the cupped guard on one is 4" wide and on the other 4 1/2" wide. The brass guards are too thick to be made from an artillery shell unless they had a way of melting the brass shells and recasting them? Thanks for all the input....keep thinking!
 
They are not parrying daggers or at the very least not well made ones from in period. I would suggest that they are more likely to be nearly unique handmade items made by someone somewhere with any time from 1800 to 2000 being a likely date of manufacture. They might have been made by a bored soldier with access to some tools but just as easily could have been made by someone in a prop department somewhere or someone in their garage. As with many nearly unique items there is almost certainly no market for these and the value is probably negligible.
 
Triton said:
They are not parrying daggers or at the very least not well made ones from in period. I would suggest that they are more likely to be nearly unique handmade items made by someone somewhere with any time from 1800 to 2000 being a likely date of manufacture. They might have been made by a bored soldier with access to some tools but just as easily could have been made by someone in a prop department somewhere or someone in their garage. As with many nearly unique items there is almost certainly no market for these and the value is probably negligible.
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Mighty acute point for a prop, though. I think whoever made these, they were for fighting. They're awfully robust. Perhaps knives intended for dueling? That would explain the matched pair.
 
JJHollowman said:
Mighty acute point for a prop, though. I think whoever made these, they were for fighting. They're awfully robust. Perhaps knives intended for dueling? That would explain the matched pair.
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It's a good point...about the points, I was mostly thinking about the edges or lack of... Anything is possible and the one absolute is that there are no absolutes. In general dueling was a formal affair between members of the upper crust and dueling weapons reflect that. These are remarkably crude and it seems unlikely that they are a dueling set. Personally I lean towards the theory that they were made as trench knives or more likely imitations of trench knives. It's unlikely without better provenance any of us wiil have anything other than theory. We may be able to say what they are not. I doubt anyone can say what they are.
 
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The blades look like cut down fencing foil blades, not originally military remnants at all.

Cheers

GC
 
I weighed one of these at 1 lb, 7 oz. Remember the hand guard is thick brass and heavy. Fencing blades are flexible and are light weight. There is no way these square, iron blades could be flexible to be used for fencing. I took them to a show this weekend trying to get more input and the feelings were WW1 trench knives but others said they are much older than that and possibly date to early 1800's as "pirate" weapons? So still seeking input but I will rule out fencing swords as the source. Trench knifes make sense with the pointed blades which were thought to penetrate heavy overcoats better than a flat blade. Keep thinking! Thank you.
 
Foils are quite stiff at the base but I guess you might be unfamiliar with that.

What you have not shared (aside from weight posted) are some dimensions, particularly the blade stock. Sure, the blades could have been made from any square stock. Are there any numbers or letters on the exposed "tang"?

As you have already pretty much made up your mind, why play blind man's bluff and twenty questions you seem to have already answered.

Take them over to the Bernard Levine section here and a couple of other spots.

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?11-Antique-amp-Military-Sword-Forum

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/forum/8-edged-weapons/

Cheers

GC

That one thought is that they are as old as the golden age of piracy is absurd and you are looking at items no earlier than the late 19th century. That they appeared as a pair, very possibly theatrical. Take them over to the other boards mentioned.
 
Thanks, I may do that later on the sword forum. I already am on the USMILITARIAFORUM with them. Dimension of the blade at the hand guard is 3/8". The suggestion of a movie or theatrical prop is worthy of consideration as I know they have modified modern firearms to resemble older weapons. There are no marking or stampings on them. Thanks again.
 
3/8"-10mm is about right for a lot of old foils. The flex occurs in the pointy half of the blades. Square or rectangular is what you will see on all foil blades. Epee and sabre have a different cross section. One will find a lot of swagger sticks and cane swords with cut down foil blades, as they have always been a cheap and constant source for blades.

Run them through the Bernard Levine section as well

Cheers

GC
 
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