Paper wheel problem?!

FlaMtnBkr

FlaMtnBkr

Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
4,704
I have had the paper wheel system for over a year now and can use them to get knives very sharp in just a few minutes. I usually just use them to touch up my EDC blades maybe once a week. I normally just use the slotted polishing wheel unless the blade has gotten very dull when I will use the grit wheel which is not often.

I just got another Benchmade Rift as a backup to my EDC user (a year old Rift) which I really do carry every day. In comparing them I noticed quite a bit of the blade has been worn off at the edge! I have been sharpening this knife for a year but this is a big concern.

I also looked at my Kershaw RAM which is only a couple months old and carried in conjunction with my Rift frequently. Looking at it I also noticed quite a bit of metal is missing at the plunge line of the blade.

I do not shapren these knives all that often and would not expect this kind of metal removal when just using the polishing wheel.

I am now at a loss as what to do. The wheels are very handy and get my knives sharper than I have ever been able to get them in a quick amount of time. However, if I am removing a substantial amount of the blade just keeping the blade sharp then they are not going to last as long as these newer knives should last with the newer materials they use.

So now I don't know if I should start looking for a different sharpening system? I have wanted an edge pro for awhile but it might remove just as much material? Maybe I need to get a strop and learn to touch up the blade on it? I did make one but have not had any luck with it. In fact, I might even make knives duller with it.

So does anyone have any thoughts, recommendations, critisims, etc?

I will get out my camera and see what luck I have with the macro setting capturing the blades where the metal loss has occured.

Thanks!!!

Ryan
 
try using less pressure when using the abrasive wheel and use the buffing wheel to maintain your edge more often. you can also try more of an obtuse angle if possible which will make for a more durable edge.
 
The grit wheel is essentially unused. It still has the initial wax on it. I have put the Benchmade on the grit wheel maybe 5-6 times and the rest of the time I only use the polishing wheel.

I don't think I have put the RAM on the grit wheel at all. This means the majority of the steel that has been removed is with the polishing wheel!

I also use quite an obtuse angle especially on the polishing wheel. I would say I use 10 degrees more per side than what I would estimate the factory angle is. I have found it gets sharper for me with the increased angle and is the only reason I do it that way for improved results. I would not say I have used an acute angle on any knife I have used on the wheels.

Have you used just one knife repeatedly for extended periods of time on the wheels to see what kind of blade wear you have?

I have been very pleased with the wheels up until this realization.
 
I'd go with Richard's suggestions, and I'll add another thought. Microbevels with a sharpmaker will get the knife really sharp quickly and leave you only needing to re-do the full bevel after maybe 5-6 sharpenings or more. If your backbevel is thin enough it only takes 5-10 strokes per grit on the sharpmaker for full sharpness. The wheels are great for quick sharpening to very high level of sharpness, but as with any fast cutting abrasive it will remove some steel quickly. Even just using benchstones (though I have used the XX Coarse DMT on it a lot for chip removal) my Manix had to be sent off to Tom Krein for a regrind back to .015" behind the edge. When you use a knife a lot and keep it sharp the edge will get thicker as you wear steel away. Once it gets thick Tom Krein can breath life back into your knife with a regrind to get it looking and cutting better than ever.

Mike
 
when i first bought the wheels i had a buck folder that i carried in my pocked and an uncle henry folder i carried on my belt. the buck would seem to go dull without even using it so i would run it over the buffing wheel a lot. the uncle henry would hold up just fine. i decided to start using the uncle henry more instead of the buck which i ended up giving to my neighbor. since you're using the buffing wheel more than the abrasive wheel try less pressure when using it also.
 
I don't think you can dismiss this merely as using too much pressure, without a bit more info. Pics may help too. But I think it would help to clarify some of your initial post. For example, how much time do you spend "touching up" a knife on the polish wheel? If you're making more than a couple of passes then something is wrong... you might actually be taking off your edge on one pass that you then have to restore with several more passes. (For a touchup after light use, 1 pass on each side should suffice). Do you do it weekly whether it needs it or not? How much and what type of use do your knives get? Are you trying to maintain the sharpest hair splitting, tree topping edge possible, and touch it up as soon as it drops below this? If so then the polish wheel may be overkill and you should look at a system like stropping on leather, which can actually restore this in just a few strokes.

Just some other ideas to consider.

cbw
 
You remove steel every time you sharpen. Sure the wheels will take off more steel per pass than a pass on a bench hone by hand. I'd not really worry about it too much nothing really lasts forever. Use them up and then get another.
 
if you use light pressure when touching up a blade it will smooth the edge back out. check the edge after each pass and hit the burr side first.
 
Using power machinery to sharpen blades requires more skill than manual systems, in my opinion. They all remove more steel than is necessary to sharpen the edge as you have discovered.
 
if you sharpen the way i do with the wheel rotating to you and hold the blade around the 1:00 position going with the wheel you can see when the burr forms and stop at that moment. you can also do a much better job.
 
I have been away from the computer so I'm sorry I am just now responding.

I usually will sharpen my knives after I use them a good bit or they are having a hard time shaving hair or not shaving at all. I don't sharpen them just to sharpen them.

I will use the polishing wheel a lot to bring back the edge. I guess I assumed that I was removing less material with the polishing wheel than giving the blade a couple passes on the grit wheel. When the blade is not shaving it does take more than one pass to get it back to shaving sharp. Maybe 15 passes per side if the knife is not shaving will get it back to shaving easily.

I also can not get my knives super hair whittling sharp with the wheels with the exception of a ZDP knife. I do like to keep them where they will easily shave arm hair though. I am not trying to get this super sharp level on my knives because I have not been able to accomplish it and if the knife easily shaves arm hair it is good enough for me.

Also, when I am just using the polishing wheel I never see or feel a burr. I only get that when using the grit wheel.

So I'm not sure where I am at with this. I guess if I can figure out how to use a strop that might be my best bet to bring back the edge in between major sharpening? I have played with the one I made and have not noticed any improvement in sharpness so I don't know what I am doing wrong. I have a heavy thick piece of leather glued to a 2x4 and have used a white compound. I have also tried a phone book cover and the back of a note pad. No luck with any of them.

There was mention of a micro bevel but I am not sure how I would apply this without using some sort of completely new sharpening device or stone?

Does the edge pro remove a lot of material? Can you use the polishing tapes to bring back an edge that isn't too far gone? How do others use the lapping film that I have read about? Free hand or with some sort of device?

I know these are lots of questions but I am just unsure of what to do. I have a system that works well for a quick shaving edge but repeated use seems to be bad for the blade. I would rather not get into a whole new setup to just bring the blades back to shaving if I don't have to. Although I have wanted an edge pro for awhile so maybe this is a good excuse?

Thanks!

Ryan

PS I hope this is coherent because I am on some pain pills right now :D:D
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
I have had the paper wheel system for over a year now and can use them to get knives very sharp in just a few minutes. I usually just use them to touch up my EDC blades maybe once a week. I normally just use the slotted polishing wheel unless the blade has gotten very dull when I will use the grit wheel which is not often.

I just got another Benchmade Rift as a backup to my EDC user (a year old Rift) which I really do carry every day. In comparing them I noticed quite a bit of the blade has been worn off at the edge! I have been sharpening this knife for a year but this is a big concern.

I also looked at my Kershaw RAM which is only a couple months old and carried in conjunction with my Rift frequently. Looking at it I also noticed quite a bit of metal is missing at the plunge line of the blade.

I do not shapren these knives all that often and would not expect this kind of metal removal when just using the polishing wheel.

I am now at a loss as what to do. The wheels are very handy and get my knives sharper than I have ever been able to get them in a quick amount of time. However, if I am removing a substantial amount of the blade just keeping the blade sharp then they are not going to last as long as these newer knives should last with the newer materials they use.

So now I don't know if I should start looking for a different sharpening system? I have wanted an edge pro for awhile but it might remove just as much material? Maybe I need to get a strop and learn to touch up the blade on it? I did make one but have not had any luck with it. In fact, I might even make knives duller with it.

So does anyone have any thoughts, recommendations, critisims, etc?

I will get out my camera and see what luck I have with the macro setting capturing the blades where the metal loss has occured.

Thanks!!!

Ryan
Click to expand...

This is power tool - what do you expect? Of course it take off metal - this is what they suppose to do.

Check what is RPM on it and calculate how many hand-sharpening pass it equivalent in that few minutes you have your knife sharpened.

For touch up I do about 20-40 passes and 20-50 passes on leather loaded with Green Rouge. Now you do same job most likely in a fraction of a second.

What interesting is - that we both spend just few minutes and got same results, but you have less blade...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
15 passes per side on the polishing wheel seems more like you should be using the grit wheel when the knife is that dull. A pass per side on the grit wheel to raise a small burr (Richard's method ensures you only raise the minimum burr required, not a huge tin foil burr like when you use too much pressure), then a couple light passes on the slotted wheel to remove the burr and polish the blade would probably take off less blade than 15 passes per side on the slotted wheel.

The microbevel can be done by a Spyderco Sharpmaker, which is about $50 shipped. It gets knives very sharp in just a minute or two while removing a tiny bit of steel. If you touch up with the sharpmaker every couple days just to keep the edge pretty sharp it should hold you over for quite a while before you need to hit the wheels again. The Sharpmaker recommends 20 passes per side on each grit of the system, but if you are doing a microbevel it will only take 5-10 passes per side on the flats of the medium and fine stone to get you a hair popping or better edge. Like I said it only removes a tiny bit of steel and IMO is well worth the money since it can do SE knives, recurves, and hawkbills easily..

Mike
 
I have a Lansky crock stick setup that has 2 angles in a block of wood that is similar to a sharpmaker.

I have tried using this after using the wheels and it has actually made the blade more dull.

Maybe I will get a sharp maker but I guess I would rather put the money towards a edge pro.

This would all be a lot easier if I didn't suck at sharpening :D
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
I have a Lansky crock stick setup that has 2 angles in a block of wood that is similar to a sharpmaker.

I have tried using this after using the wheels and it has actually made the blade more dull.

Maybe I will get a sharp maker but I guess I would rather put the money towards a edge pro.

This would all be a lot easier if I didn't suck at sharpening :D
Click to expand...

You repeating this silly excuse to do some work - "suck at sharpening :D".

If you are ablet eat soup with the spoon - you should be able to keep blade horizontally and so should be able to sharpen same way I do. Have a look at simple lessons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TscN9h-1xQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP9tII6Tp7s

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I personally think the Sharpmaker is a better set up than the Lansky due to the triangle shaped rods having the flats to sharpen on. With minimal practice or the Lansky for that matter should be able to bring hair popping results. You don't need to use it straight off the wheels, just for touch ups at a higher angle than your main bevel. The Edge Pro is more for full sharpenings, which you are already doing on your wheels. You can microbevel with it, but it isn't cheap to use as a microbevel machine and takes a bit of time to set up. If you don't want to practice on the crock sticks or think about getting a Sharpmaker for touch ups then I would recommend just using the buffing wheel for touch ups rather than spend a bunch of money for the Edge Pro to only use it for microbevels (it also has a learning curve that you need to consider). Just because you buy an Edge Pro it doesn't mean you will be getting perfect edges right away, and again if you are happy with your results from the wheels I think the Edge Pro would be redundant in your sharpening arsenal. Also, IMO if you can sharpen on the wheels you should easily be able to microbevel on crock sticks or a sharpmaker.

Mike
 
mike, i think he needs to change how he is sharpening on the wheels by going from sharpening in the front to how i sharpen so he can watch whats going on with his edge. i sent him some vids to watch that might help. i have knives that took a lot of sharpenings on the wheels and have a lot of life left in them.
 
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