Parks #50 quench crack on 1095

Tai Goo

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I got this pic from an advanced student of mine yesterday. He has been making a lot of real nice thin kitchen knives from 1095 edge quenched in canola, with great results. I actually have one that I use everyday and it performs great! Anyway, he decided to give Parks #50 a try, and the very first time this is what happened. He said he was going back to good old canola and felt like the Parks was a waist of time and money for the type of knives he likes to make.

parks50disaster.jpg
 
I have had this happen with Parks on 1095. From what I could figure its heat. Never break 1550 deg F. For the quench. At 1575 to 1600 this seems to happen more and more. Especially on thin blades. I use 1095 for about 98% of my blades. Things I have found important are: Heat oil to 120 deg F. Go straight to temper after quench. I have had blades crack on the bench an hour after quench. Now I go straight from quench to temper.
 
He didn't heat the Parks, and said that it cracked on the bench a few minutes later while it was air cooling from an interrupted quench. You would think that the auto temper effect and finishing in air would have prevented it.
 
Hi Tai.

Park's 50 is almost as fast as water. Quenching very thin blades can be a problem.

Nothing wrong with canola, if it works. :)
 
Hey Don, yeah,... get some fresh canola, add a vegetable oil stabilizer and some aromatic oils to it, call it an engineered quenching fluid... and call it “Quencharoma“. LOL
 
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That is a good looking blade. I think Super-Glue might be able to fix it.:eek:

On a slightly more serious note........... 1095, after quench, can explode on you while you are sitting there watching it. I think the key is not grinding too thin prior to heat treat, especially if you are using something like Parks 50. Grinding belts are relatively inexpensive (did I say that?), and I have found it is best to "rough grind", heat treat, then grind to what I am looking for.

As a side note, my brother-out-law forged an integral from O-1 a couple of years ago and we quenched it in AAA in my shop. He left here with full intentions of putting it in the oven to temper immediately.... even called his wife to tell her to preheat the oven. Only problem was, when he got home, he had some unexpected company and completely forgot about his blade.

Long story - short ............ Next morning, the cracks in his great looking integral looked similar to a spider web.

Following a few simple rules sure seems to help in knifemaking. Following a few simple rules also seems to help with life-in-general.

Robert
 
Too thin
Too hot
Too extreme (edge quench)
Too late (temper)
Too bad

Nice blade.... My Houghton Quench K is comparable to Parks#50 but it's operating temperature is higher at 120-160F. After I quench with an interupt, I put the blade back in the oil until I'm ready to temper. My kiln takes about 3hrs to drop down to the tempering range. 5160 and 1084 aren't an issue.... that 1095 is sensitive stuff, though.

I don't see the merit in edge quenching a kitchen knife. (unless for the look of a temper line) It would still make a nice boning knife!


Rick
 
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Ive seen file steel do that setting on the bench after quench. Its a shame to lose a nice knife like that but we've all done it I suppose.
 
Thanks for the feedback and info., guys. My student and I are talking it over.

I think the Parks was just a bit too fast for that quench, although he probably could get it too work fine if he wants to adjust his approach to suit the medium better. I guess that's to be expected with any change of medium.

The edge quench was for aesthetics, and I'm not so sure Parks was the best medium for that. If you preheat it you tend to get flare ups because of the low flash point, and flare ups fatigue the medium faster... a bit dangerous too.

He's had great results with canola on thin blades and I doubt that there's a difference of more than 1-2 Rockwell points.

Either way though, the catch is,... you have to do it right... temps., and timing have to be spot on.

Yeah, it's too bad about that blade. He had a lot of work in it and it shows.
 
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Thanks for the feedback and info., guys. My student and I are talking it over.

I think the Parks was just a bit too fast for that quench, although he probably could get it too work fine if he wants to adjust his approach to suit the medium better. I guess that's to be expected with any change of medium.

The edge quench was for aesthetics, and I'm not so sure Parks was the best medium for that. If you preheat it you tend to get flare ups because of the low flash point, and flare ups fatigue the medium faster... a bit dangerous too.

He's had great results with canola on thin blades and I doubt that there's a difference of more than 1-2 Rockwell points.

Either way though, the catch is,... you have to do it right... temps., and timing have to be spot on.

Yeah, it's too bad about that blade. He had a lot of work in it and it shows.


Nice summary Tai! If it's possible that some Rockwell points are being lost by the current method, maybe (?) the learning curve is worth looking at.

Take care, Craig
 
Good point Craig.

I guess he'll have to make that decision on his own,... if it's worth it or not?,... or if it suits his person style?

Beyond a blade performing very well for the use/uses it was intended for,... I'm not really sure myself.
 
Tai,

Have you examined the broken section? I am seeing a drastic color difference in the broken section the mottling seen and smooth look toward the tip. It looks to me that it was overheated in that area. Canola gives a little buffer zone if the material is overheated. Parks does not. Anyhow if he decides to get rid of the parks I am sure there are many who will take it off his hands, me included.
 
I looked at the photo initially and saw the quench lines and the coloring and thought "Too hot,too thin, partial quench".
Sadly, all too often an improper quench is blamed on the oil, not the procedures used. Going to a slower oil will just make a lesser quality edge by allowing more pearlite to form. 1095 needs the speed.

I know the metallurgy thing is not your style ,Tai, but what happens in cases like this is a factor of large grain size, caused by too much heat, and the partial quench causing different structures to form along pathways that were started in the overheating.

A simplified time-line is approx. like this:

The blade edge is overheated, leading to large grain growth . This particularly affects the tip and edge. A particularly hot spot may rise into the bevel in a rounded hot spot. Along these grains, the alloy ingredients in the steel collect in ribbons, instead of evenly distributing themselves.
( In 1095 - Carbon, Manganese,Phosporus, Silicon,, sometimes Vanadium ......all assuming the steel is actually 1095????? )

The blade is partially quenched into parks #50 that is too cool for optimal quenching. The quench is already somewhat compromised by the partial submersion, and the cooler than optimal quenchant temp also retards even transformation. This results in cooler and hotter places on the blade.

The blade is pulled out of the quench after a few seconds. This is one of those things that lots of people do, that leads to cracks and breaks, post HT. The spine is pearlite bound if it misses the nose, around 1000F, so why subject the edge to the severe stress of a sudden uneven cooling and very irregularly applied auto-tempering by allowing the pearlitic spine to bleed heat into the not yet martensite edge? The edge is going to start to turn from very soft austenite into glass hard and brittle martensite in ten to thirty seconds......why not let it have the smoothest ride, by leaving the blade submerged in the quench oil for two or three minutes.

OK, so the blade was partial quenched, and then taken out of the oil and set down on the bench too cool. The pearlite along the spine was already formed,and although it is considered a soft structure, it is actually pretty hard. It can skate a file sometimes. The middle of the blade is where the blade is still a mix of pearlite and austenite. This will change into pearlite and martensite as the blade cools, with the heat from the spine leaching into the mix and causing a line or wavy pattern. The pearlite in this area will be a softer type than the pearlite in the spine. A little bit later the martensite along the edge forms suddenly as the blade crosses about 400F. This hard and brittle stuff can be literally pulled away from the pearlite along those giant boundaries formed where an area was overheated. Why?...because the grain boundaries block the growth of the pearlite "fingers" growing into the martensite edge and thus holding on to it. The edge pulls away or splits as a crack. Cracks perpendicular to the edge are usually caused by the stress of the entire edge giving way as the martensite expands.This is sort of like a board cracking when bent too much. This is the dreaded ping in yaki-ire. Cracks parallel to the edge ( or curved and separating cracks like this one) are caused by the hard martensite forming along a dedicated line, usually the product of grain growth and alloys accumulating along that boundary ( alloy banding). This gives a path for the stress to follow, and separated easily. The example would be a board with a knot or big grain swirl breaking at that spot when bent, You know exactly where it will break, and it usually separates in a clean line. The knot sometimes falls free of the board completely. The problem is worsened by the fact that the alloy ingredients are not distributed, so the steel has places with too much alloy, and places where it is starved of alloy....and thus the steel in those areas is just C and Fe, making it extra brittle.

The solutions are not to use a slower oil and get a lesser quality blade, but to use the Parks #50 at 120F and HT the blade at a lower temperature and with better temperature control. Once the partial quench has had about 5-7 seconds, completely submerge the blade and let it sit in the oil for two or three minutes. Once cooled to a temperature you can hold in your hand, wipe it off and immediately place in the tempering oven.
This won't guarantee that a blade will never crack, but will give you the best chances.
The second solution is to use a steel more matched to the type of quench done. 1084 may have be a better choice for such a quench. Canola would have worked for 1084....and your shop would smell like baking cookies !!!

I did not go into the HT before the quench, as that is another long subject . But, on a blade like this, cycling it down through a series of descending normalization temps will reduce the grain size and help re-distribute any alloy segregation.
 
It doesn't show in the pic, but he said the grain was extremely fine. I don't think he over heated the blade. I know he's very careful about that. He also customarily tests the edges by chopping on some hardwood and they don't show any chipping and or curling. I think what might be happening is that he cycles the blades from low temps, so many times, through the hammer finishing, straightening and normalizing that the grain is getting "abnormally small" and he's loosing some hardenability. He might need to make some adjustments to the normalizing sequence to optimize hardening, which we are already discussing. I think if he just stays the course with the canola and trys to get the very most out of it, it'll be about as good as it gets and there's nothing wrong with a bit more relaxed blade than one that's all stressed out and on the verge of fracturing.

The highly stressed blade may perform a bit better than the more relaxed blade in the short run,... but may not last as long either.

He's specializing in forged kitchen knives and really likes them thin especially along the edge portion of the blade. He also does stock reduction by hand, so he's forging very close to shape. He likes hamons and multi banded quench lines as well.

He's pretty much decided to stay the course with the canola and doesn't think the Parks is the way he wants to go. I think there's still some room for improvement with the canola, but since he's already at least 90% of the way through the learning curve with it, starting a new learning curve with the Parks would just be a set back. Also, catering to the Parks would probably lead him in a direction he doesn’t want to go. I think he’s better off using a quenching medium that suit’s the work, rather than changing the work to suit the medium. I feel my job as his teacher is to help him make the types of knives he likes/wants/enjoys making the best that they can be,… rather than trying to tell him what he likes is wrong.
 
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I would always opt for a quench oil that is on the slower side then the faster side. If it on the slower side, like Texaco Tuff, Houghton G, or the canola/veg. oil mixes, you can "adjust" the speed by the amount you heat or dont heat the oil, and by the volume of the tank. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns, and you have to find that point for what ever oil/steel/methods your using. Ive seen way too many warped blades using the super fast oils.

Another rarely mentioned factor is the volume and size of quench tank your using. You can get by with a "slower" medium if you have a larger tank, holding more oil that you can move the blade in at quench. My tank is long enough so when I submerge I "cut" the oil back/forth in the tank. The blade moving through "fresh" oil helps pull that heat, and gives me a more thorough conversion then simply dunking the blade.

One thing im surprised by is the mention of leaving blades out to cool before putting into the tempering oven. I know very respectable makers that do this, but I wont and never will. After I pull one out of the tank, which is usually about 30 seconds of that "cutting" motion, I knock the clay off make sure everything is straight, and put into the tempering oven immediately. After 1 to 1.5 hours, I pull the blade, grind any clay residue/crap off the blade to see what I have going on, and then do a second tempering cycle for another 1 to 1.5 hrs.

The above may not be whats in the book, or whats taught at the schools, but it sure works for me.
 
Good points Matt. I think he is agitating the blades in the quench, but I'll check on that. He could also make a circulating or vibrating quench tank to keep the medium in motion and cut down on any vapor jacket.

I think going straight to the temper while the blade is still a bit hot and following up with a second temper is a good practice with touchy steels.
 
I looked at the photo initially and saw the quench lines and the coloring and thought "Too hot,too thin, partial quench".
Sadly, all too often an improper quench is blamed on the oil, not the procedures used. Going to a slower oil will just make a lesser quality edge by allowing more pearlite to form. 1095 needs the speed.

I know the metallurgy thing is not your style ,Tai, but what happens in cases like this is a factor of large grain size, caused by too much heat, and the partial quench causing different structures to form along pathways that were started in the overheating.

A simplified time-line is approx. like this:

The blade edge is overheated, leading to large grain growth . This particularly affects the tip and edge. A particularly hot spot may rise into the bevel in a rounded hot spot. Along these grains, the alloy ingredients in the steel collect in ribbons, instead of evenly distributing themselves.
( In 1095 - Carbon, Manganese,Phosporus, Silicon,, sometimes Vanadium ......all assuming the steel is actually 1095????? )

The blade is partially quenched into parks #50 that is too cool for optimal quenching. The quench is already somewhat compromised by the partial submersion, and the cooler than optimal quenchant temp also retards even transformation. This results in cooler and hotter places on the blade.

The blade is pulled out of the quench after a few seconds. This is one of those things that lots of people do, that leads to cracks and breaks, post HT. The spine is pearlite bound if it misses the nose, around 1000F, so why subject the edge to the severe stress of a sudden uneven cooling and very irregularly applied auto-tempering by allowing the pearlitic spine to bleed heat into the not yet martensite edge? The edge is going to start to turn from very soft austenite into glass hard and brittle martensite in ten to thirty seconds......why not let it have the smoothest ride, by leaving the blade submerged in the quench oil for two or three minutes.

OK, so the blade was partial quenched, and then taken out of the oil and set down on the bench too cool. The pearlite along the spine was already formed,and although it is considered a soft structure, it is actually pretty hard. It can skate a file sometimes. The middle of the blade is where the blade is still a mix of pearlite and austenite. This will change into pearlite and martensite as the blade cools, with the heat from the spine leaching into the mix and causing a line or wavy pattern. The pearlite in this area will be a softer type than the pearlite in the spine. A little bit later the martensite along the edge forms suddenly as the blade crosses about 400F. This hard and brittle stuff can be literally pulled away from the pearlite along those giant boundaries formed where an area was overheated. Why?...because the grain boundaries block the growth of the pearlite "fingers" growing into the martensite edge and thus holding on to it. The edge pulls away or splits as a crack. Cracks perpendicular to the edge are usually caused by the stress of the entire edge giving way as the martensite expands.This is sort of like a board cracking when bent too much. This is the dreaded ping in yaki-ire. Cracks parallel to the edge ( or curved and separating cracks like this one) are caused by the hard martensite forming along a dedicated line, usually the product of grain growth and alloys accumulating along that boundary ( alloy banding). This gives a path for the stress to follow, and separated easily. The example would be a board with a knot or big grain swirl breaking at that spot when bent, You know exactly where it will break, and it usually separates in a clean line. The knot sometimes falls free of the board completely. The problem is worsened by the fact that the alloy ingredients are not distributed, so the steel has places with too much alloy, and places where it is starved of alloy....and thus the steel in those areas is just C and Fe, making it extra brittle.

The solutions are not to use a slower oil and get a lesser quality blade, but to use the Parks #50 at 120F and HT the blade at a lower temperature and with better temperature control. Once the partial quench has had about 5-7 seconds, completely submerge the blade and let it sit in the oil for two or three minutes. Once cooled to a temperature you can hold in your hand, wipe it off and immediately place in the tempering oven.
This won't guarantee that a blade will never crack, but will give you the best chances.
The second solution is to use a steel more matched to the type of quench done. 1084 may have be a better choice for such a quench. Canola would have worked for 1084....and your shop would smell like baking cookies !!!

I did not go into the HT before the quench, as that is another long subject . But, on a blade like this, cycling it down through a series of descending normalization temps will reduce the grain size and help re-distribute any alloy segregation.

That is very informative. Reminds me of oil quenching 1090 and heating it way to high and after tempering, when banging the part around this case steel rod of 1.3", it cracked in half like a piece of glass! the solution? lower the high heat!!! the rest was fine.

Also if we do go thicker on the edge and do a lot more blade working after the tempering i can see that taking a lot of time by hand or via water wheel - surely you can't put that back on the belt or it will loose temper?

Thanks for the post.
 
There is some good metallurgy in Stacy's post. However, most of it doesn't really apply to this scenario. Although I do appreciate the time and effort that was put into it.

It's partially my fault for not explaining the "edge quenching" technique that was used better, and partially just the fault of the forum medium.

The edge quenching technique used to get the multiple banding or multiple quench lines is not typical. The rate of immersion is modulated. The edge portion goes in quick and then the rate of immersion slows down. This coupled with the wedge shape geometry of the blade creates the multiple lines. By the time the back of the blade reaches a black heat, (which is just a matter of seconds on thin blades), the blade gets totally immersed or submerged.

The temperture for the interupted quench can be judged by the smoke point of canoal, but not so with the Parks.

I've already addressed the grain size and the overheating, so no need to go over that part again.
 
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Another rarely mentioned factor is the volume and size of quench tank your using.

That's something that's always made me wonder, too... I see so many makers using a gallon - or less! - of oil, in containers that won't allow them to agitate the blade and reduce the formation of the dreaded vapor jacket. Go big! There's nothing to stop ya from using 2 gallons, or 5 gallons! It's not like the stuff goes bad...
 
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