Paying For The Name

Joined
Nov 5, 1999
Messages
14
As with designer clothes and various makes of cars it seems that certain knife makers command higher dollars for their knives because of their name.

I am having a knife made by a not as known custom maker and when I told my knife buddies they tried to gear me towards their favorite makers who have bigger names in the industry. But bigger names also mean more dollars and I feel that the maker I have chosen will give me a great quality knife and for less dollars. I also prefer the steel this maker is using to the others. So I was talking with one friend and we basically concluded that part of the price is paying for the name but in paying for the name the knife retains greater value.

So I will from my maker get a great knife but if I had to sell that knife it might not have the resale capabilities as other name makes.

I would like other opinions about "Paying for the name" in the world of knives. Has the knife industry now come to what other industries have come to in regard to names?
 
PaulB,

Yep, you ARE at least partly paying for the name. As a maker gets noteriety for his/her design, materials or craftsmanship they can sometimes take off like hell & garner ALOT of interest/orders. This tends to jack up the price of their work. I primarily buy for defense purposes, but I collect as well. Some of my favorite makers are: JSP, RJ Martin, Mad Dog, REKAT, Emerson, Crawford, Polkowski, & quite a few more. Some of these makers are more expensive than others. Are they worth the cost? To me they are. The most important thing is WHAT YOU like & what you are willing to pay for. I don't HALO jump, go off to war, or do any other type of EXTREME activity. I do martial arts, like to shoot & have a good time. These are personal defense blades & to me they serve one purpose: To keep me ALIVE in the street, should I NEED them. I feel confident, that should the need arise they will serve me well.

Just my 2 cents.



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Attila
 
Paul b
We are not just paying for the name with our hard earned dollars,we are paying for the makers reputation and experance and past performance,(If he hadent performed in the past it would have cought up with him by now)We the customer put the Maker in what ever position he or she is in in the market by eather rewarding the Maker with a purchase or not buying his or her work for whatever reason.The higher cost is usually in the extra care given to each Knife that he produces due to his eye for quality,after all his reputation is at stake with each and every Knife he produces and you have to admit that that is alot of pressure.


Kevin.

 
The expense of gaining that name and maintaining it has to come from somewhere. Any one who advertises knows thatit is not cheap and out of town shows can run up the bills quickly.

If you have found a maker who is not so well known but makes a fine knife at a fair price buy fom that man, you will usually get a great bargan. If all you want is a "collectable" knife go to a well known maker, these knives hold their value better because of the advertising the maker does.

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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com

 
Interesting question, Kevin for the most part hits the nail on the head.

No matter what is available for sale, if it is in demand there is always someone who will do it for less money.

When you buy a knife from a "non-name" maker you are paying for him/her to go to school on your knife. You are providing that maker with the opportunity to learn more about making knives.

This has happened to every "name" maker you ever heard of.

The reasons you pay more for a name maker are many.

1) They have years of expertise
2) They will generally have better quality equipment (which costs more since it is a "name brand".
3) They are generally full time, which means they have to be able to provide for their family.
4) They attend many of the "Big Shows". For instances here is an example of expenses for the New York Show that just ended.
a) Plane =$300
b) Table Fee = $550.00
c) Hotel $290 (per night) X3
d) cab fare= $ 80.00
e) Food = $100 (at least)

The total for this show is $1,900.00
If you are working off of a 25% profit, you have to sell almost $8,000.00 worth of knives to break even at this show. With this in mind, you have to do over $10,000.00 in sales to even start to think you had a good show.
This will also contribute to the cost of knives.

Do they run ads, have a nice catalog, web site, etc. Again, this can add up to several thousand dollars a year.

When I used to publish a catalog, the cost per year including postage was about $15,000.00 per year.

Becoming a "name" does not come cheap. This is part of the reason the "non-name" maker can make your knife cheaper.

One other thing, I have noticed a trend on the internet for the interest to be with "name" makers. I feel this is due to the nature of the internet. Most of you are willing to send someone money for a maker who's name you know. Are you willing to buy the work of a "non-name" maker sight unseen?
Probably not.

What your paying for is not the name. You are paying for all the years and expense it took to get the "name"!

Les

 
Les and George,
You are right about what goes into a name, and the expenses that drive the price of the knife up.

Les, I had no idea that kind of expense went into a show!


The maker I am going with doesn't do shows although he may attend them and he doesn't have the overhead that many of the name makers have. But, others have heard of him and know him so he isn't someone who is just starting out, he has just always remained small because he has a full time job and only since the net has he started to promote himself to a wider customer group than within his home State.

Although this maker's prices are a big selling point to me, I also want one of HIS knives and I have seen and handled some of his other knives.

 
Paul just because a maker does not have a "name" does not necessarily mean that he is any less of a maker so look at his work carefully and make your purchase decision based on what you see.

Les is right about the costs of out of town shows and that is the reason that I forgo attending a lot of shows.

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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com

 
George,
I agree with you there about a maker not having to have a big name in order to get a great knife.

Due to the internet us knifeconsumers have become so accostomed to hearing the big names that many of the other knife makers are overlooked.
 
I have been collecting knives for a couple of decades; and, as a collector I will say frankly that I do not really care how much it cost for a maker to attend a knife show.
Each maker needs to decide how they manage their costs.

As a consumer my interest is in getting the highest possible return in quality, value, and design for the dollars I invest. It clear to me, however, that when a maker actively promotes a product, stands behind and supports that product, and takes steps to develop their quality and reputation; That those products tend to maintain or appreciate in value. Therefore I am willing to pay a significant premium for the maker's product.

As for the lesser known makers, there are two basic types.

Many of these are folks who make knives as a hobby. They may have developed a high level of proficiency, over many years of knifemaking; but, knifemaking is strictly a secondary occupation for them. Many of these are excellent using knives and good values. But, don't generally expect a strong resale market for a non-professional maker.

The rest of the lesser known makers are people who are in the process of developing their careers. Buying these knives is always a bit of a wildcard, there are many lemons, but some of these people are going to eventually make up the ranks of the leading knifemakers of their generation.

I buy knives for pleasure, but, its nice to know that the cost of that pleasure can be offset in part by the resale value retained in the collection.

[This message has been edited by not2sharp (edited 10 November 1999).]
 
Not 2,

Actually, you should care how that maker utilizes his budget. The effective or ineffective use of this budget will increase or decrease his chances of becoming a maker that you can take comfort in the amount of sellability that is retained in each knife you purchase.

If you were to talk with any maker who has been successful. Success being based on becoming a "name".

These individuals have several things in common. First and foremost is the quality of their work. Second, they got their name out there and it stayed out there. This is where how they spend their advertising $$$$ comes into play. They stayed with it for a minimum of 10 years.

Most new collectors who are interested in buying one of the new makers knives. Has a limited background in custom knives. Therefore they are more likely to purchase on pure visual impact of a knife.

As the collectors get more educated they start to look for additional indicators that will keep them going back to that same maker.

This is why it is imperative that the makers business...thats right business grows as fast if not faster than the time it takes for his customers to get educated about the finer points in custom knives.

Shows, advertising, awards and articles in knife publications are all an integral part in helping the knife maker become successful.

This further impacts the collector market in that they are the ones who, in conjunction with the makers, dealers and magazines make the wheel spin.

We are all intertwined in this every evolving cycle of what and who is hot and what and who is not!

Les
 
Les,

I'm always glad to see your input, but there has been something nagging me about it that I couldn't quite put my finger on. I think I just have.

Buying fine knives as investments is something entirely separate from buying fine knives for use. Many posters here seem to treat the two interchangeably. Les, your advice is excellent for investment, but for "use" it sounds as if you might as well be discussing stamps. In fact, on this entire forum there is scant reference to actually cutting anything.

Now, I agree that knives are as good an investment as any fine collectable. But there is another reason to own a "custom" knife, and that is peak performance as a tool. A knife by a "no-name" maker is, by definition, a poor investment (unless that maker gets a "name later"). That same knife may be an A+ field tool, outperforming dozens of factory and even "name" knives. Which evaluation dictates its "fair" price?

I point this out only to say that we may be having an "apples and oranges" discussion.

-Drew
 
I have collected knives made by well known makers and also by not so well known makers. I like them all. Each has its own individual character. I think of knives as Art. Sometimes they are mostly appreciated visually. But sometimes the Art is in balance and grace felt only by the hand. And there is Art in craftsmanship, functionality, and utility.
I like very well made knives made by relatively unknown makers who receive little money for their work. And I like knives made by very well known makers who can make a lot more money for the same or perhaps even less effort. Sometimes there is a large difference in the quality of work. Sometimes there is not. It all depends. Generally, there seems to be a more consistent quality in knives made by the "known" makers. If these makers are master smiths of the ABS, their work has been repeatedly examined, and representative knives have been performance tested. It is normal in collecting Artwork to expect to pay more money for a work by a well-known artist. It's the same thing with knives.
Part of the Art of knives and knifemaking is line and form. Part of the Art is in the skill of the craftsman and his use of tools. Part of the Art is in the understanding the craftsman has about the use of materials and techniques. Part of the Art is the creation of an optimally functional tool from optimally functional materials. And the really successful artist also has to know how to market his work.
A relatively new maker usually has little command over all of these facets of knifemaking. This will probably show in many small ways when examining the knife. A well-known maker has usually learned through hard work, determination, and inspiration to produce a product that is consistently excellent. In order to market his work, the maker may have to spend large sums of money to attend shows and pay other expenses. Unless a maker is somewhat well known, the Internet purveyors probably won't display his work. One should expect to pay more for the work of a well-known knifemaker. Does this mean that the knife will be better than a knife from a relatively unknown maker? Maybe. Maybe not.
One of the true joys in collecting knives is finding that special piece out the hundreds one may see at a knife show, in a magazine, or on the Internet. Unfortunately, for all of the reasons discussed here, many good knife makers remain relatively unknown. I think finding a relatively inexpensive knife by a new knifemaker whose work is excellent is one of the true joys of collecting. My favorite knife was made by Daniel Winkler, who recently became an ABS Master Smith. But three of my treasures were made by TB Morgan of Timonium MD who makes the most beautiful knives with outstanding temper lines in file steel, 5160, and W1 tool steel. His knives are fantastic. They were made to be used. And priced accordingly. I plan to watch Tim work get better and better, and to receive more and more money for his work in coming years. I also have collected a couple of Herb Derr's knives. His mosaic damascus is really spectacular and is priced very fairly. Will I use these knives just because they were less costly than some of my other knives? Will I just play with them and admire their beauty and workmanship? Will I someday sell them? I don't know just yet. I just know that I like them.
I think you should collect what you like. I don't think that the present day value, or the future value of a knife should be dominate considerations. I don't understand people who would collect knives they don't like but were made by a famous maker. And I don't understand why someone would not buy a knife they really like just because the maker is unknown. Its fun to discover a really talented maker before their work increases in value. Some knives are too expensive and precious to use. Others demand to be used. I try to only collect knives that I can at least imagine using. Because to fully appreciate the art of knifemaking, one has to use one's mind, eyes, hands, and heart.
Paracelsus


[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 11 November 1999).]
 
Well said Paracelsus! Eversince my passion for knives got serious two years ago, my taste, preferrence and judgement has been changing as well. I might like "tactical" folders today but i'll change with passing of time and like something else when i'm older. What i'm saying here is that my collection is determine by my heart not the value of the knife, even by a particular maker who is not famous now but will be in the future? For example, Mel's work is not top notch nor did he win any awards but the quality or value is justifiable for what you've paid for. And the best part of such makers is that they care to throw in a little extra or special "addition" to the knife that you've so requested, making them extra special without any additional cost. I know the reason behind all this "method" because i work in the advertising industry and these are "pull" strategies but i believe these are not the makers intention. Some makers are doing it for the love of knife making but some are not. Whatever the reason, regardless of them being famous or not. One must always follow their heart because in the end of the day, it is YOU that will answer to yourself whether you've made the right judgement in the purchase. I know i've made many mistake and lose much money but i know i can answer to myself because i like them all.
(BTW, they all will stand up to abuse if the need arrises.)
P.S; This is written IMHO only and if you disagree, so be it. No pun intented.
 
Dew,

You are correct my slant on custom knives always looks to the fact that 90% of you will eventually trade or sell 90% of the knives you buy.

This happens becauselike with most things you purchase, your taste's change and you want something new.

However, I feel I do know something about using knives. When I first started every knife I bought was a using knife (by the way I sold or traded everyone of those knives).

My point is not that you should only buy name knives. Many of the makers I work with now, I have done so for over 10 years. Guess what, when I bought my first knife from them, they were not "name" makers. I did what several of you were suggesting, buy what you like, which is the key.

I will also tell you that I bought a lot of dogs as well. Early on, I lost thousands of dollars on custom knives. This did not stop me from buying, it only made me change my criteria from whom I bought custom knives.

The name was not my main criteria, quality was. However, what I have found is that generally the two go together.

Les
 
I buy an occasional custom knife myself. I have bought a few because I was attracted to them because of their beauty and form. However one of the finest knives I own is stricly a using knife and so ugly I can only use one eye at a time to look at it. It took me 4 years of waiting to get it and I am proud of it. I admire and respect the maker. Was it as good a deal to me? Yes.
I like both the beauties and the funtional pieces. I like the users because it reminds me of what a knife is. I like the others because it shows how much of an art form knives can be.
 
For someone like myself, who is cautiously making the move to my first handmade knife. I have found this topic to be the most informative of any that I've read at the Forums. I thank you all!
I have pretty much decided to start with a Herb Derr, and the last thing I'm thinking about when I buy, is selling it. I guess I could wait and save for a Name maker, I'd just rather have the knife. I'm not buying it to use, it's not for an investment, it's just I love knives, and this is what I want, at a price I want to spend, now.
If someone asks me why I collect knives, my answer simply is , "Boys need toys!"

Thank you all again!
 
I have to agree with Les here. My expenses at Ny were just about the same. It does take years to get a name going in this business. I do feel the longer a maker is around the better there name. As les said quality comes with time .
Making knives full time is a good life. I have no complaints. BUT If you are not a business person like Les has said above you will not have the chance to be here in 10 years. Overhead is a great expense. Thats why the knives that take time to get, are high quality , and have a name cost more.


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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
What Les and Darrel have to say about overheads is absolutely correct. For the past two years I have been trying to go full time. My knifemaking business has yet to make money, basicly due to show expenses. This was to be expected, and I budgeted for it.

Part of my pricing, and I am an unknown maker, includes overhead for travel and advertising. To not do so would be to kid myself and shortchange my customers. I intend to be around in ten years, making better, and better known knives. To do this, I have to survive.

Ultimately, I suppose I will get to the point that people will buy my knives partly for my name. Behind that name will be the work I have put into establishing it, the skills I have developed and the ten years of savings from miserable corporate jobs that I have invested in this effort. Note that a "name" is only part of the equation. I was a collector before I was a maker and there are "name" makers that I would never buy a knife from because their knives don't appeal to me

Unrelated anecdote:
At the Blade Show West in October, Bud Lang was calling me Matt Who? Personally, I got a huge charge out of one of the editors making fun of me. How sad is that?
smile.gif


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Matt Harildstad
Knifemaker
www.planet.eon.net/~matth
matth@planet.eon.net

 
For a new makers to make it into the big leagues, they must clearly posses the ability to make good knives, basic business acumems, and good customer service skills. But, perhaps more importantly, they will need to develop their own signature style. I don't think any of us would have any problems identifying a Hibbens, or Randall, or Meringer, or (insert your favorite well known maker here) from across the room at a show. These makers have developed their own unique signature style; and that's key in developing an identity.



[This message has been edited by not2sharp (edited 15 November 1999).]
 
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