Peening fix?

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Jun 24, 2013
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I got an old saber and it doesn't wiggle forward or sideways.

What the blade does, it rotates around 20 degrees when twisted in its handle and the peening area moves by the same amount.
Peening it more is probably pointless ? since its already tight in that direction. It just rotates.

Is the only fix to fill the tang hole to prevent the tang from rotating in it? I could sneak a syringe through some space in the guard.
What kind of material could I fill it with which could be removed at a later point? (I don't want to mess up a historical blade permanently) Epoxy is probably ruled out. How about silicone?

How hard is it to unpeen a tang and then repeen. Is that even possible without making the tang shorter?

Thank you.
 
I've been a pondering this all day long without much success. Silicone sticks like a mother but it stays flexible so it would still twist.

I'm wondering if a guy could squeeze saw dust mixed with plain old wood glue (Elmers etc) and pack that in there.
Or some mechanical space taker upper, a wedge of some sort. I apologize for the technical jargon, hate talking above folks.

I know of know way to unpeen and repeen without shortening at least a little bit.
My first thought of course was acraclas but that stuff is forever.

Laha! If you got some of that and could get it in there some how it would set up, but it's pretty thick and would be difficult to get in there without a pretty large access.
 
How valuable is the saber? If it is a really valuable antique that you might want to sell in the future, I suggest you leave it as-is, or maybe clean off surface rust but don't try to fix the rotation. Sometimes fixing an antique piece reduces its value to serious collectors, or makes them wonder about its authenticity.

If the saber is not worth a lot of money, or if you expect to keep it and just don't want to modernize a historical saber, I can't see how it would hurt to try injecting some superglue into the tang area. The saber wasn't designed to have a rotating handle, so you would just be restoring its historical functionality, and the fix might be completely invisible. Also, if the tang is peened over, that means the handle isn't designed to be disassembled, so again you would not be changing its historical character.

Post some closeup pictures of the handle assembly from different angles. Maybe that will give people additional ideas.
 
What material is it made out of?

I am leaning towards shellac... from bugs..
dissolve solid in alcohol (make it pretty concentrated?) and put some in there....
when you want it gone, alcohol takes it away.

disclaimer: I only know chemistry, not antique swords..and haven't played much with shellac but alcohol is a pretty good solvent and doesn't usually destroy things like acetone.
 
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peening wont help much, it might work for a while,but you're gonna need to hit it a LOT to fix that, and it's a temporary fix at this point, if its loose, it'll become loose again, unless you pump it full of epoxy or something
 
Thanks everybody for your help. :)

The saber is a cavalry saber and more specific Ulan (Lancers). I cant believe they clung to the use of lances until 1926. Anyways that saber is from around 1910.
They are often called officer sabers which might be correct but I guess officers didn't carry them in battle but received them once retired. Thus it's more of a presentation saber in my opinion, though I might be wrong. The edge isn't sharpened and the guard is much less useful than the standard saber's. The steel however, judged by how springy it is seems to be the same like the standard sabers.

Those run from a close to a thousand to quite cheap. Mine has no sheath, countless nicks in the edge, rather small rubies or even glass in the lions eyes and well its blade rotates. So its an easy guess how much it was but I guess I'm not allowed to disclose its value according to Forum rules.

I like to preserve old things close to original as possible, no matter how cheap they were, but I also like to have things which can function. David, "historical functionality", I like that :p
The handle looks like plastic, probably bakelit. Older models have leather but this is too hard and shiny to be leather I guess? Also if it were leather or laquered wood shouldn't it be cracked by now?
I can't see if the inside of the handle is different material but might insert a needle and probe a bit.

Bawanna, space taker upper, I had to google :-D Inserting thick metal wires could do the trick or would that instead of reinforcing the filler create more stress points? Wood glue sounds good. Does it shrink a lot? If that would stay sticky softish but still hard enough like Laha in a Kukri that would be best.

STWM Shellac sounds like a fun material for many things. I got to experiment with some. Could this handle's outside be made of it by any chance?

Phantomknives As it looks no amount of peening could stop the twisting. I wonder why they designed them this way?
If I decide to go with epoxy. I got one which is supposed to be good but doesn't become hard to the point of brittle.

How do I deactivate or get rid of rust (which may or may not be there) if I can't access the tang?
Soak it in oil for some time let it drip off and then fill in the epoxy/woodglue? I known Epoxy wouldn't stick to an oily tang but its shape, once solidified, should be enough to prevent the twist? Or would no oil be better, allow for a better seal and prevent future moisture from reaching the tang and thus be the better rust stopper/prevention in the long run.

Thanks again. :)


Enough talk, here are some pictures.
28794908494_1cd8f24c81.jpg

29339336991_573118eee3.jpg


The peening, engraved and colored (how?) to match the lions mane. I enhanced the contrast to make it more visible.
28794950424_72ace5407e.jpg


Rotation
29339381851_7a6795a2c1.jpg

29339390451_db9148d832.jpg


Opening
28797602863_c3b562625f.jpg
 
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Chemically I'd say phosphoric acid/naval jelly to stop the rust. Anyone know if you can do dry electrolysis? Hook it up to a battery and pump electrons from oxide back to reduced iron?

It is borderline impossible that the handle is shellac. Usually some celluloid nitrate/camphor or something like bakelite as you suggested would be my guess.
As with anything, put a little drop in an inconspicuous place to test for solvent compatibility. I'm not seeing any red flags here but remember..free advice is worth it's cost!
 
Give us a very close up of the "twist" area. If the assembly is heavily peened and engraved, it was not meant to be disassembled. I haven't seen the nicks in the blade you speak of, but add those to the rust, lack of scabbard, and other assorted boogers, I believe I would shoot the runny liquid Accraglas, not the gel, into an opening IF THERE IS ONE on the grip. Give it as much as she will take. Position the blade where you want it to be, mount it in a vise, blade pointed up, and allow it to set undisturbed for 24 hours. Accraglas is gunsmith grade epoxy from Brownell's. It comes in two parts, not counting dyes, and you must mix them together first. If you repair a wooden rifle stock with this stuff and attempt to re-break the stock in the same place, you will break new wood only. It will hold wood to metal! If you needed to repair the sword later and needed the handle off, heat it up with a hot air gun or hair dryer and the Accraglas will loosen it's grip and will not set back up as before. I suspect, but not knowing exctly what you have, that if you Accraglas the sword, it would be usable once again. At least that's how it works on swords here in Corn Patch. No need to thank me for all this information. It's just part of the public service we employees of Bawanna Sword Emporium and Repair Service, Ltd. perform because we of Bawanna's are a "cut above" the competition!
 
Jens:

1. Based on your last couple of pictures it looks to me like there's plenty of room to shoot some "runny acraglas" into the gap, as Bookie puts it. I haven't worked with the stuff myself, but if it's thin enough to be injected with a syringe that should do it. Or maybe just dribble it in, let gravity take it down into the handle and keep adding more until it stays topped up.

2. Is it actually against forum rules to mention the price that one pays for a blade outside Bladeforums? I normally would consider it bad form, but there are exceptions, so I hope someone can enlighten me about the rules.

3. By coincidence I just acquired a very similar sword, without the handle carvings, but in near-perfect condition. The P-guard is all steel, but the handle itself is covered in some kind of fine metallic mesh wrapped in wire, as shown in the pictures below. The metallic mesh and wire wrap is non-ferrous (aluminum? nickel-silver?), based on the magnet test; everything else is steel. Like your sword, the tang is peened over at the end. The price was very reasonable; I won't say the price in case that is against forum rules.

Also like yours, the sword came without a scabbard. I will probably make a scabbard for it, first because this is a very nice piece and deserves a scabbard, second because the tip is very pointy and should have some protection for safety.

Again like yours, the blade is very springy and not sharpened. It looks to me like it probably was military issue, and it's not fancy enough to have been a parade sword. I do wonder about the non-sharp edge and the fact that the blade has no nicks and only a few tiny spots of superficial tarnish. Also the lack of any identifying markings. Maybe the edge is left unsharpened until the blade is actually issued, perhaps sat in an armory somewhere and was eventually sold and restored to near-new condition.

The seller says that the P-guard was broken at the right angle corner and he welded the break and polished it up so it's invisible. If he did that much work on the guard he probably also cleaned up the blade. He describes it as a "Prussian officer's sword." Anyway, here are the pics:

PrussianSword31in-Pguard-01.jpg PrussianSword31in-Pguard-02.jpg PrussianSword31in-Pguard-04.jpg PrussianSword31in-Pguard-05.jpg PrussianSword31in-Pguard-08.jpg
 
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Looking at the pictures of the space which I didn't see before it looks like there plenty of room for space taker uppers too.

Just a small wedge, a door shim, metal would of course be better. If it primarily for display that would remove the wiggle when you hold and admire it.

The acraglas would be a solid for sure fix, I've used lots of the stuff. The liquid is slightly trickier to work with since the two parts are measured by volume and it's not 50/50. The gel is 50 / 50 and I can just look at it and see if the 2 amounts look about the same.

For your application the liquid would be the ticket.
 
i'd go with bawanna' method.

davidf99, your grip looks like twisted wire over rayskin - tho the rayskin may be simulated by the whole shebang being a lost wax casting

the P guard light cavalry sabre, UK model 1796* was widely copied & the germans especially liked it. many of the lion head pommel ones were german, there looks like a crest or some deco on the languet, a better photo of it might be diagnostic. they were peened, with a rivet thru ears on the back strap. the rivet can normally be removed (drilled or cut out carefully) and the wood (or whatever) grip removed and replaced (or filled in with something to prevent rotatation, then re-riveted. would have someone more skilled and better equipped than myself do it tho. there are pro restorers around.

the germans used a similar narrow bladed spear pointed pattern for a long time, and still issued the old 'blucher' ones that were a fair copy of the original hatchet pointed UK 1796 LC sabre late in the 19c. the UK replaced them with straighter or straight blades, and shipped a lot of the old '6ers to india for the sepoys, where the mutineers in 1854 re-gripped them as tulwars. the brits complained that the indian swords cut better than their new model ones, attributing mystic powers to them, but they were really the repurposed UK swords but actually sharpened ones and in leather or wood scabbards that did not dull the edges. brits used metal scabbards that did at the time (and didn't bother to sharpen their edges before deploying into combat - dull edges were mandated in peacetime to prevent training accidents, and blades looked nicer un-scratched. british army officers at the time bought their commissions, so most, even high ranked ones, were rather ignorant untrained, inflexible parade soldiers who didn't think & oreder a change by actually using initiative to have his men's sharpened, tho they did tend to darwin themselves out when the fit hit the shan, sadly taking a lot of troops with them.

lances are of course still used as parade weapons (mounties & others), went out of fashion in the field in ww1, the myth of the polish cavalry attacking tanks in ww2 is just a myth, tho they did actually charge successfully a german encampment they caught by surprise and without pickets & basically wiped it out, but ran into a better defended german column on the other side & retreated. not being fools as the germans would have us believe, they normally rode into battle without the lances, dismounted dug in and use rifles and SAWs, artillery like everyone else. not having air superiority cost the poles the war.

many sabres were never sharpened, especially in america during the civil war. they were also very rarely used. no time to training recruits hastily assembled and thrown into battle as cannon fodder. even an unsharpened sword can break bones or skulls and inflict nasty wounds.

* - the british 1796 LC sabre: they were normally peened directly to the pommel, like yours, tho many have a small protruding keeper then peened, like my (sharp) cold steel one (with a leather/wood scabbard :))

1796LC_2014-05-28_18-37-44.jpg

p.s. - do NOT use naval jelly for removing red rust, it's very aggressive, acidic, and requires a lot of safety procedures, and will damage the blade and/or fittings. it is designed to pit the surface of steel, desirable on a ship to prepare the steel for painting, but not so on a knife or sword.

i use a commercial non-toxic tannic acid based rust converter (from ebay) that will convert the red rust to the stable protective black form, aka 'good rust' that is like the normal patina we desire on old blades... or on HI villagers. ;)
 
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Bookie, STWM, Davidf99, Kronckew and Bawanna
thank you so much everybody.

Acraglass is ordered though I only found the gel. Maybe the liquid version is out of production.
If I can push it through a large "flavor injector" syringe, I have, it should be fine. Even if its a gel, with the syringe I should be able to place it all the way in there. Once the Gel is in there I'll insert a few spacer upper takers.

I don't know if the tang is rusty but also don't see any way of fighting it without disassembling which would probably destroy the whole saber. I hope the epoxy will stabilize the tang corrosion at whatever level it is.

The handle is wood inside :-O which means Bakelite is ruled out and its probably covered by celluloid. Both materials sure have a very similar shine to them.

There is really just that peening at the bottom and no cross pin anywhere else on the handle though I've seen it on some other swords, probably later versions. And David's saber has it too. Its kind of duh. How could the earlier versions rely on one peen at the end and leave so much space in the handle that the tang can rotate in there? What were they thinking?

Nicks There are many. Most are around the strong part of the edge, only a few closer to the guard and some on the spine. There are also a few scratches on the flats. All the nicks have a similar width depending on how deep they penetrated. Some nicks are a bit diagonal. From this it doesn't look like some kid took an old blade and swung for the fences. It looks more like saber on saber action and resembles how my training swords are starting to look like albeit my nicks are much much smaller due to differences in steel and more likely the much thicker "edges" mine have. Since the saber isn't sharpened its for sure no war action and saber on saber doesn't necessarily mean it was training back then. It could very well be some training last week though the patine inside the nicks would speak against that.

Other interesting things are the makers mark. It indicates that the sword was made by A C S (Alexander Coppel, Solingen). While they made cutlery they also made weapons during the Kaiser time. Later when the Nutzis gained power they didn't thank them for their service and instead took over their factory. Members of his family were put in camps and died.

Kronckew. I heard about that cavalry against tanks myth. Luckily we have internet nowadays and can confirm or disprove such rumors more easily. Even if it were true I don't think most people would make fun of it. If anything it hints of the backwardness of the Polish army's equipment but at the same time would be a testimony to Polish courage. Also if the Nutzis would have used that as propaganda wouldn't a weak enemy have taken away from their "achievements". But maybe that was too much logic for them. What Saws did they use. Another word for machine gun? I think Poland wasn't prepared well for a fight and the attack must have come as a relative surprise. Even if Poland would have had superior airplanes they might have been destroyed on the ground if not on alert and ready to fight back. The same happened to France which on paper at least had a better or bigger army. The same problem occurs in self defense. The bad guy knows when he attacks, we don't. After we eat the first punches, kicks or stabs we see whats going on but then its probably too late to respond, already injured.
The P guard seems like a good compromise. It's close to the upper fingers which don't move much and leaves more room for the lower fingers which move more during snap cuts for example. Of course if given the choice I'd prefer an entire "basket" around my hand.
Your are right, your (excellent looking btw) saber blade shape looks exactly like what they used in Prussia before and during Napoleon and maybe even later. Though their handles always look very thin. So thins that the first few I saw I thought they must be fakes. :-p
I knew about the Tulwar blades from Europe (some from Germany as well) and was wondering what blades Indians might have used before that time. Did they forget about damascus steel and woots in between? I'm sure they must have had something useful at least. Were European steel and blade shapes better or did they just get swamped by it? That the British didn't sharpen their blades and were surprised by the Indian blades sounds unbelievable. Even from a metal sheath one can pull the blade in a way that the leading edge stays sharp. Of course only if one deems that important. But seriously even their chefs could have told them sharp = cuts better. Reading some accounts on armies from that time I'm sure most common soldiers would have had some kitchen experience. Anyways you could still be right about this, even today some of us believe a sword shouldn't be sharp...
How aggressive is Tannic acid? Could I pour it into the handle, let it soak for some time and pour it out before injecting the epoxy or will it eat away at the wood or celluloid or even do funky things with the brass?

Thanks again everybody,
Learning a lot from you.

Edit:
Kronckew now I know how our Polish friends became part of the topic. The Ulans. The first Ulans were Polish! I was just referring to the Prussian Ulans which were a copy of the Polish original. They kept their lances until 1926. My great grandpa was one of those until 1901 when one horse kicked him and injured his lung.
 
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For the record it space taker upper, not space upper takers, if your gonna talk scientific try to stay correct.

I would not mess with anything like the Tannic acid. Everything mess's with everything else in someway, sometimes it's good, quite often it's bad.

The rust will just give the acraglas something to grab onto.

Ironically (Bookie, that means kind of like isn't it weird this happened) I got a new package of acraglas today too.
Can't remember the last time I was completely out.

It will be thick, the more you mix it, the thinner or more moveable it gets. Looks to me like if you can't get it through a syringe or something you could just push in dabs of it with like a coffee stirrer stick. I keep a ton of those around for moving, applying removing excess acraglas etc.

I've gotten a couple new packages where the hardener, hmm I think it's hardener, the white stuff, was kind of hard and crystalized. I contacted Brownells and they said to just leave the lid a little loose and stick it in the micro wave for just like 3 seconds. Comes out working perfect. Mix it well.

You usually have plenty of working time but have everything ready and stuff it in there. The clock is ticking.
 
For the record it space taker upper, not space upper takers, if your gonna talk scientific try to stay correct.

I would not mess with anything like the Tannic acid. Everything mess's with everything else in someway, sometimes it's good, quite often it's bad.

The rust will just give the acraglas something to grab onto.

Ironically (Bookie, that means kind of like isn't it weird this happened) I got a new package of acraglas today too.
Can't remember the last time I was completely out.

It will be thick, the more you mix it, the thinner or more moveable it gets. Looks to me like if you can't get it through a syringe or something you could just push in dabs of it with like a coffee stirrer stick. I keep a ton of those around for moving, applying removing excess acraglas etc.

I've gotten a couple new packages where the hardener, hmm I think it's hardener, the white stuff, was kind of hard and crystalized. I contacted Brownells and they said to just leave the lid a little loose and stick it in the micro wave for just like 3 seconds. Comes out working perfect. Mix it well.

You usually have plenty of working time but have everything ready and stuff it in there. The clock is ticking.
Thanks for the additional tips and I'll get the lingo down once it Takes Up Space enough in my brain.

Now I just have to do it once the Acraglass arrives.

Will update with pictures though they might not show much being inside the handle and all.

Thanks again :)
 
SAW=squad automatic weapon, ie. a light machine gun.

indians were swamped by western mfg. of cheap high quality steel and sword blades. damascus (or more properly - 'pattern welded' laminated) steel and wootz is pretty, but western alloy steels are easier to work with and thus cheaper. the specially sourced wootz took very specialised and time consuming processes and was easy to overheat & ruin. cuts well, but has a softer edge & also bends. it was always fairly limited production for the rich. surplus british sabre blades were cheap, especially when the british east india co. was deciding what to equip their 'inferior' native troops with. i've also heard it theorised that the mystery ingredient in the wootz ore ran out in the 19c, tho parade, prestige & dress weapons were still made from stocks of it thru the century & into the last. 'damascus' and wootz were better than the mono steels of their heyday, but inferior to modern steel alloys and their precise formulations.

i'd not pour in tannic acid based rust treatment into the wood grip interior, tho i still think it's good for the exposed steel bits. the epoxy accraglass will seal the wood as noted and prevent further rust. you want a rough surface to aid adhesion. tannins are produced by trees like oak, and others and will diffuse from wood and act like a corrosion inhibitor (and tan leather) so probably would be OK at the mild concentrations in commercial rust treatments. you do need to like blackened steel or whatever esle it soaks into tho. the stuff i use you paint on & let dry for 24 hrs. to soak into the rust, it doesn't really attach well to bare steel. anyway, after 24h you dampen with a wet sponge, wait 24h again, then wash off the black residue, and i then also scrub it with a non-metallic scrubbing pad. it also comes in a mix variation with an acrylic coating & primer component. you really gotta like glossy black. wouldn't use that brand on a weapon. ok for cars that you will paint tho.
 
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SAW=squad automatic weapon, ie. a light machine gun ...

Kronckew,
Thanks for talking swords. It's super interesting! Thanks for sharing.
Do you have a name for the tannine rust converter/deactivator?
It sounds useful for quite a few things.
 
it's called 'Fertan'
IMG_20160910_072639_HDR.jpg


fertan said:
Fertan is the optimal treatment for the removal of rust from all metal constructions

Fertan converts rust to an inert stable surface that can be painted with any type of paint or coating. On bare metal it prevents rust from forming.

Fertan is also very efficient at stopping and removing loose rust as it is washed of as a dust and the remainder is converted to form a stable surface

Fertan is a tannic acid that is water based and non toxic. It also has an unlimited shelf life in closed containers.

The purpose of Fertan is to provide you with all the benefits of shot blasting with no surface damage and no material loss. The advantage is that it can be achieved by just unscrewing the top of container and working a brush or spray.

As there is no blasting the process is nuisance free and silent. You are able to observe and be sure that all the rust has been converted before applying opaque paint coats

it's available in the UK from ebay and amazon.

watch out tho, there are equivalents there that also include acrylic resins, OK if you are painting the target, not so good on weapons.

ebay USA has it listed at ridiculous prices. amazon usa is better. or have it shipped from the UK. ;)

the stuff, like ballistol, lasts forever in the container, and a little goes a long way. the usa info seems to say it leaves a phosphate layer, which is not correct, no phosphoric acid in it.
 
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it's called 'Fertan'
IMG_20160910_072639_HDR.jpg




it's available in the UK from ebay and amazon.

watch out tho, there are equivalents there that also include acrylic resins, OK if you are painting the target, not so good on weapons.

ebay USA has it listed at ridiculous prices. amazon usa is better. or have it shipped from the UK. ;)

the stuff, like ballistol, lasts forever in the container, and a little goes a long way. the usa info seems to say it leaves a phosphate layer, which is not correct, no phosphoric acid in it.
Thank you! I ordered it and Accraglas arrived today :-)
Can't wait to get to it. Probably next week.
 
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