Penn State Students looking for your input!

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ChrisPSU

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Sep 18, 2019
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Hello all!

I'm Chris, a student a multidisciplinary engineering student at Penn State Brandywine in Malvern, PA.

I'm part of a team working on a semester long design project that aims to create a hand tool for performing the duties of an axe, saw, or very large knife at a high level of performance without needing to make compromises to optimize for one specific scenario over another (chopping vs. splitting, as an example).

I've prepared a short survey (10 questions) for anyone who has experience with these sorts of tasks and would be willing to share their valuable time and knowledge with us. It should only take 6 or so minutes to complete.

Here's the link to the survey:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/RSZTJR9

Thanks for your time everyone, it is much appreciated!

If this has enough interest I will share our design team's results in this thread upon completion of the project.
 
I applaud your enthusiasm but I don't have high hopes for your project. I think you'll find that you have to make compromises. In the end you'll make a tacti-cool multi-tasker that doesn't do anything well.

But I took the survey and I'm willing to help. I use a lot of hand tools. If you send me a message on this site and include an email address I will contact you.
 
Square_peg said:
I applaud your enthusiasm but I don't have high hopes for your project. I think you'll find that you have to make compromises. In the end you'll make a tacti-cool multi-tasker that doesn't do anything well.

But I took the survey and I'm willing to help. I use a lot of hand tools. If you send me a message on this site and include an email address I will contact you.
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I basically said the same thing. Gave them my email after filling out the survey. I figure if there's a prototype to look at then we can offer some suggestions. But without having an idea what they have in mind it's impossible to offer anything constructive.
I agree with your sentiment though. I'm not optimistic...
 
it already exists in as close to fulfilling all those boxes as possible IMHO ... Carothers Performance Knives ... from their HDFK model up to their choppers they offer a light chopper ... a medium chopper ... a heavy duty medium chopper (just slightly thicker blade stock) ... and a behemoth chopper ...

you can chop reasonable sized trees ... they will baton and split wood very well ... they have no saw but as well as they do the other two you really don't need a saw unless you are tackling large trees or on a very long extended outting.

if it can be batoned through a cinder block and cut a nail and show very little to no edge damage ... not sure you can improve upon that much.
 
JJ_Colt45 said:
it already exists in as close to fulfilling all those boxes as possible IMHO ... Carothers Performance Knives ... from their HDFK model up to their choppers they offer a light chopper ... a medium chopper ... a heavy duty medium chopper (just slightly thicker blade stock) ... and a behemoth chopper ...

you can chop reasonable sized trees ... they will baton and split wood very well ... they have no saw but as well as they do the other two you really don't need a saw unless you are tackling large trees or on a very long extended outting.

if it can be batoned through a cinder block and cut a nail and show very little to no edge damage ... not sure you can improve upon that much.
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Nah it's not an axe, so I don't think so.
And nothing can replace a saw.
 
Hickory n steel said:
Nah it's not an axe, so I don't think so.
And nothing can replace a saw.
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they asked what could be used the best to replicate all ... and they are as close as I've seen ... and they will chop through reasonably sized trees well ... and as I said unless you are needing to cut a large amount of wood they could get you through without a saw ...

now nothing can replace all three tools completely ... but if they want one tool that can do all the chores well ... CPK is it IMHO.
 
Good luck guys! you might be able to make like zippo and have a bowsaw that's hidden in the handle. as far as an axe and knife, i feel something like a crash axe or something with a large beard would work good for slicing and chopping. like they've said above, if you need any help we'll be more than glad to help.

Hope you guys nail this design for a reasonably price point, might look into getting one if i can scrounge the dough, and if you guys sell them
Oh and one last thing, do not forget to make the cheeks convex, it greatly reduces the sticky-ness of axes
 
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I work with tools for a living. Multi tools are never as good as a dedicated tool for a specific purpose. By combing functions the tool becomes heavier, bulky, uncomfortable, and harder to use. Say you have one tool with 3 different features for 3 different tasks. It usually takes longer to setup the tool for each task vs grabbing a seperate tool for each task. IMO the only way to create new functional multi tools would be with the assistance of new/future technology. Hand tools have already been improved upon to the max. Why reinvent the wheel again when the tech is out there to make a hoverboard?
 
not saying you're wrong im just saying it would be a lot nicer to not have to carry a 3 foot long axe and a 5 foot long saw at the same time. again the novelty goes away if your truck is right next to you, but if you have a full cutting/felling rig, if you can take a few things out of that set up it makes it much easier.

It depends on their design but this could actually end up being a useful tool of they do it right unlike what Zippo made which is very definitively a toy in the shape of an axe, it's got more plastic than metal on it.
 
I think you would be better served engineering a transport/carry system for the tools vs combining them into a single tool. I took the survey, the saw and axe are nearly counter to each other in what you would want from a tool. And for splitting the size wood mentioned in the survey, probably going to want a good size axe.

For hand tools, doing those tasks, I could probably get away without a knife even though I really like them in tight quarters that I frequently fetch firewood in. But, my saw for something that size is a 40" crosscut and I'm not about to combine that with an axe into a single tool. Just not practical. Even for the axes the try to make a bow saw out of it, not a great alternative.

I think if you figured out a carry system though, would be all set.

I would be interested to see what you come up with for a solution and how effective it was during trials.
 
I think the variance in theoretical tree size is too large.

And my concern about this avenue of pursuit is that processing wood for fire is one of the tasks that mankind has been doing since the beginning. Harvesting wood with a hand tool reached its pinnacle, I think, in 19th and 20th century North America. I mean that's when the chainsaw became the harbinger of doom for the axe industry. The axe as a hand tool was surpassed in mid 20th century for harvesting wood.

So for North American temperate forests the ax of that era was the zenith of wood cutting and splitting. It was the culmination of 300,000 years of input from all over the world. I think they are going to have a hard time trying to engineer something new that wasn't stumbled upon from the Paleolithic until now.

An axe will cross cut and split wood relatively efficiently, and it follows the KISS principle to the highest order. It's not as efficient for crosscut as a saw. But a saw can't split. A few pounds of steel at the end of a stick is an awfully capable thing. Build a house, shave wood. Heck, shave. Hard to beat for dealing with wood all around.
 
phantomknives said:
not saying you're wrong im just saying it would be a lot nicer to not have to carry a 3 foot long axe and a 5 foot long saw at the same time. again the novelty goes away if your truck is right next to you, but if you have a full cutting/felling rig, if you can take a few things out of that set up it makes it much easier.

It depends on their design but this could actually end up being a useful tool of they do it right unlike what Zippo made which is very definitively a toy in the shape of an axe, it's got more plastic than metal on it.
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That tree I have been wedged under has really kept me out of the loop. I have to give phantomknives a big THANK YOU! for telling us about Zippo's entry into the world of logging tools. Frankly, I had not seen or heard of it until his post yesterday and now I wonder how long it has been on the market? It does indeed look a bit like something you might find under a Christmas Tree for the grand kids to play with.

I suspect a Zippo lighter would have more success eradicating 40 acres of trees than the Zippo AXESAW! For those that have not seen it: https://www.zippo.com/collections/outdoor/products/axesaw

It would seem to me your favorite axe and an Agawa Boreal 21 saw would just about have you covered unless you are out there all day then a thermos of coffee and a couple of peanut butter sandwiches might tie you over until you head back home. https://agawacanyoninc.com/pages/boreal21

I wish the lads at Penn State good luck. It will be difficult to come up with something to surpass an item that has seemingly reached the peak of refinement a century or more ago. That is not saying it cannot be done, the guys at Agawa Canyon, inc. moved the bar up a couple of notches with their Boreal 21 saw. Now if material refinement were to be included coming up with a new steel alloy that stays sharp and isn't brittle, won't chip or break ... that would be considered a step forward by many.
 
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The trouble with bow saws is that they're limited to small diameter logs. Something like a Silky Bigboy or Katanaboy let's you cut much larger diameters. But the Silkys kink and you need to learn how to use them.

The problem with axes like the Zippo or Fiskars is that handle gets in the way of splitting. Fiskars mauls will split but they won't chop. Always a compromise.
 
Without context it's impossible to give a real answer. What kind of applications is the wood being gathered and processed for? Are we talking a small camp/cook fire, or are we talking about a home wood stove? Are we talking harvesting and processing wood for crafting or building? How are the tools being transported to the work site? What is the prioritized range of uses that it will be used for, in detail? What is the environment of use like, and so on and so forth. It's impossible to design a tool without tradeoffs of one kind or another, and you cannot optimize a tool without intimately knowing the conditions and applications of use.
 
Lot of good discussion in this thread, looking forward to the outcome if you guys decide to continue moving forward with this or some other project :thumbsup:
 
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I could see maybe a set of hardware that be attached to a boys axe allowing it to be used as a bow saw being something that would work.
Obviously something you attach when needed.

No matter what the knife just has to be it's own thing.
 
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