Performance Damascus

Larrin

Larrin

Joined
Jan 17, 2004
Messages
5,015
I've been thinking about the performance of damascus lately. Do you think that double high carbon damascus could somehow perform better than a single steel? I mean, with two unique steels (possibly with unique properties) with good edge retention, working together plus the "damascus cutting effect" do you think any difference would be negligible, or would it be even better than the two steels alone? Also, how much (if any) do you think nickel in damascus drops the edge retention of the steel?
 
Good question here.

I guess in theory the "double" mix of 2 hi carbon steels could possibly give you a better performance knife. If the heat treat is good then I would guess that not only the selection of the two steels be a consideration but also the pattern in which they are manipulated.

For the "damascus cutting effect" to take place, I would say that you need the greatest amount of steel differentiation out at the edge.....so a tight twist or incised pattern would do this. O1 and L6 would be a great combo for perrformance damascus with a great pattern.

A good cable blade can have this effect too. I have heard that Michael Bell forges his competition cutting katanas from logging cable for just this reason.
 
I agree with Greg about the pattern being the most important factor....BUT, it is unlikely,maybe impossible for a combination of effects to surpass both single effects at the same time.It may be better than one of the steels,but won't surpass both at the same time.Lets take an extreme example,O-1 for hardness and 52100 for toughness.The combined damascus will be harder than 52100,and tougher than O-1.However,It will not be harder than O-1 or tougher than 52100.The nickel is not a major problem (Oh Boy.I started it now) with the edge retention.Edge retention will be a product of the harder steels.Unless you are using .10" nickel sheets ,it is soo thin . By the time you hammer it to a couple hundred layers it makes no effect.
 
What about going for pure edge retention? Like using one steel that has good edge retention while being fairly simple (like 52100 or 1095) and one that has good edge retention from being more complicated (like with vanadium in it), or one steel with a fine grain (again like 52100) and one with big carbides (like D2). Something where both steels had good edge retention for different reasons.
 
Larrin, you could go the route of some of the Jap kitchen knives -a central core of high carbon stuff laminated with outer layers of damascus.You don't have to use pure nickel, the nickel in L-6 will etch very differently from any non-nickel alloy. I'm with the L-6/O-1 group and you could use that with a O-1 core if you want.
 
It depends on what you want to cut. Something that would cut better with a slight serration will do better with a twist type damascus, since the different steels will etch slightly differently giving you a toothy edge. For a polished edge I think homogenous steel would be better.
 
i just came back from the ashokan seminar where kevin cashen did a seminar on HTing steels. he's done extensive reaearch on pattern welded blades and their performance. you might want to email him kevin@cashenblades.com
be ready for really in depth explinations and some really big words. ;)
 
Michael J. Spangler said:
i just came back from the ashokan seminar where kevin cashen did a seminar on HTing steels. he's done extensive reaearch on pattern welded blades and their performance. you might want to email him kevin@cashenblades.com
be ready for really in depth explinations and some really big words. ;)
Click to expand...

That's one of the things I like so much about Kevin. You ask him a seemingly simple question, and you get a detailed scientific answer worthy of Bill Nye the Science Guy! ;) :)
 
The damascus cutting effect supposedly occurs because out at the edge....let's say in a medium twist pattern, you can possibly have soft/hard/soft/hard...all along the edge. In cutting, this theoretically will cause a micro-serrated edge.

In Hrisoulas's book he says that the "ultimate" damascus can be made from 01 and 1050......and in a twist pattern, I would imagine it possessing the "DCE"...or damascus cutting effect. Heat treated it may be 55Rc/59Rc/55Rc....and so on...out at the edge.

This might create an argument here....but if you think about it.....the same effect will happen with cable.....if the base steel is 1095 and you lose carbon on the exterior of each individual wire...either in the forging process or through the extrusion of the cable (I have heard it both ways)....then just the simple random pattern of the cable will throw alot of that mix out at the edge. A well heat treated cable blade will possess a tremedous cutting edge (not to be confused exactly with edge retention)....very sawlike....yet still hold a great edge.
 
Devin says he thinks you could get some interesting results, possibly better than a single steel. And about san mai, that gives the steel great toughness and strength, but mostly I'm worried about edge retention, at least in this context. I'm mostly just wondering what others think about it. Jerry Hossom loves his 3v/154-cm.
 
Yes - Kevin is indeed Bill Nye in disquise....:eek:

:p



Jerry is using 3v/154-cm? I'll bet he's loving it!

Gotta try that....wow....
 
San-mai shouldn't hurt edge retention at all, it should be equally good as a homogenous blade, it basically is a homogenous blade with some prettyness on the sides.
 
AwP said:
San-mai shouldn't hurt edge retention at all, it should be equally good as a homogenous blade, it basically is a homogenous blade with some prettyness on the sides.
Click to expand...
I know that, I was just saying it was irrelevant because I am talking more about edge retention from the two steels together than I am about a combination of toughness and edge retention. San Mai is great for performance, allows you to have a hard edge, while also having toughness and strength in the rest of the blade. I'll also e-mail Kevin, there has been very little testing done on the performance of damascus, I'd be interested to hear what he has done. Luckily I have my father to explain any scientific mumbo-jumbo to me, why he knows so much metallurgy I'll never know.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top