Phenolics, making Micarta

Dman3d

Dman3d

Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Messages
374
So after reading for some time I've been trying to pin down how to make Micarta. Read and seen a good deal about fiber glass resin and most of that seems somewhat straight forward. It got me wondering about white paper Micarta. Most of the fiber glass resin is dark or brownish yellow looking. Is there a specific resin that is better suited for maintaining color, or rather that won't tint the material you are working with?
Looking up phenolic and it covers a general range of resins.

Mainly thinking of papers, I want to make some artistic Micarta so I would need a resin as clear as possible.
 
A lot of surf boards utilize a clear or mostly clear resin designed for harsh conditions. That's where I'd start my search if I weren't at work right now.
 
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Never thought of that, thanks!
Are these types of resins what professionals use or what would be acceptable to knife makers like fiddleback and family? For example same material that shadetree uses?
 
West system 105.. Google it, it's what you want; stuff makes excellent micarta, and its bullet proof (Google that too ;))

Fod, fiddle back crew -- concur?
 
If you are even remotely interested in working with resins, get some West System Epoxy. I've used it and MAS, and actually like the MAS better (50/50) ratio where west is 5:1. However, both have handy dispenser pumps that meter out the correct amount. My biggest trick is to go to the grocery store and buy some 3-4 ounce plastic drink cups that you use to rinse your mouth out after you brush your teeth. They make the perfect mixing container for a small batch. I'd also recommend a box of popsicle sticks - make awesome stirrers. A bunch of small chip brushes- one use and done. If you want to work wood, then get a tub of wood fiber (extremely fine sawdust) used to thicken the epoxy or some cabolated Silica- also a thickener. A jug of Acetone is helpful also. Epoxy likes clean, grease free surfaces with some surface profile aka "tooth"

West seems expensive, but it's really not all that bad if you bite the bullet and go with the gallon jug. The thing I like about West is that it's proven, has good support and info on the web and it's designed for Marine use.

Here you can see where the epoxy and pumps live prominantly on my well organized work bench.

Whitty2-L.jpg
 
swonut said:
If you are even remotely interested in working with resins, get some West System Epoxy. I've used it and MAS, and actually like the MAS better (50/50) ratio where west is 5:1. However, both have handy dispenser pumps that meter out the correct amount. My biggest trick is to go to the grocery store and buy some 3-4 ounce plastic drink cups that you use to rinse your mouth out after you brush your teeth. They make the perfect mixing container for a small batch. I'd also recommend a box of popsicle sticks - make awesome stirrers. A bunch of small chip brushes- one use and done. If you want to work wood, then get a tub of wood fiber (extremely fine sawdust) used to thicken the epoxy or some cabolated Silica- also a thickener. A jug of Acetone is helpful also. Epoxy likes clean, grease free surfaces with some surface profile aka "tooth"

West seems expensive, but it's really not all that bad if you bite the bullet and go with the gallon jug. The thing I like about West is that it's proven, has good support and info on the web and it's designed for Marine use.
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:thumbup:
 
xxwjtxx said:
West system 105.. Google it, it's what you want; stuff makes excellent micarta, and its bullet proof (Google that too ;))

Fod, fiddle back crew -- concur?
Click to expand...

Awesome thanks so much. Will start reading on it.
 
swonut said:
If you are even remotely interested in working with resins, get some West System Epoxy. I've used it and MAS, and actually like the MAS better (50/50) ratio where west is 5:1. However, both have handy dispenser pumps that meter out the correct amount. My biggest trick is to go to the grocery store and buy some 3-4 ounce plastic drink cups that you use to rinse your mouth out after you brush your teeth. They make the perfect mixing container for a small batch. I'd also recommend a box of popsicle sticks - make awesome stirrers. A bunch of small chip brushes- one use and done. If you want to work wood, then get a tub of wood fiber (extremely fine sawdust) used to thicken the epoxy or some cabolated Silica- also a thickener. A jug of Acetone is helpful also. Epoxy likes clean, grease free surfaces with some surface profile aka "tooth"

West seems expensive, but it's really not all that bad if you bite the bullet and go with the gallon jug. The thing I like about West is that it's proven, has good support and info on the web and it's designed for Marine use.
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Terrific this is a huge help. :thumbup:
 
I am thinking I will start with papers. I am assuming the best materials would absorb the resin. Is that correct thinking? Any general rules or examples of materials that just won't work with resin?
 
Dman3d said:
I am thinking I will start with papers. I am assuming the best materials would absorb the resin. Is that correct thinking? Any general rules or examples of materials that just won't work with resin?
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Take your time between layers; smooth to avoid bubbles. When setting apply equal pressure (using c-clamps or similar) and be patient.

Read this: (http://www.cartercrafts.com/micarta.htm) it helped me a lot
 
I've tried it once, and it's just such a mess that I figured it was easier to just buy what I needed. However, I still experiment some and the bubbles are always kicking my butt. The thing with epoxy is that it is mostly a mechanical bond, so there has to be epoxy between the layers. Squeeze out can be a problem. Anyway, what I don't have, but would definitely get before working again on any cloth based material is a roller spreader. For paper, a squeegee.... If I remember from when I was researching, there are a lot of you-tube videos out there.

I forgot the most important item:

NITRILE GLOVES, Lots and lots of Nitrile Gloves. And then get another box of 50 or so and set it aside. (And open it before you get a rip in one glove) A dedicated epoxy trash can is also kind of cool, because it will trash your normal trash can.
 
You can always sign up for a year of indentured servitude in the Shadetree burlap "mines" to learn all there is to know about making custom micartas. Beware that the ventilation is very poor down there and the epoxy fumes may cause to you to hallucinate some crazy bright-colored burlap combinations. :eek: :p

Phil
 
Comprehensivist said:
You can always sign up for a year of indentured servitude in the Shadetree burlap "mines" to learn all there is to know about making custom micartas. Beware that the ventilation is very poor down there and the epoxy fumes may cause to you to hallucinate some crazy bright-colored burlap combinations. :eek: :p

Phil
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Sound advice indeed ;)
 
Comprehensivist said:
You can always sign up for a year of indentured servitude in the Shadetree burlap "mines" to learn all there is to know about making custom micartas. Beware that the ventilation is very poor down there and the epoxy fumes may cause to you to hallucinate some crazy bright-colored burlap combinations. :eek: :p

Phil
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Hmmm need to keep the brain cells I got.
My idea is to work with hand drawn and painted patterns, that is way at the end once I figure out what I'm doing and get past the "oh crap why did I bother with this" step.

What would be a good standard size and thickness? The idea would be fiddleback, Surls style knives/sized blades.
 
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Dman3d .. the Shop Talk area of BladeForums would probably fetch a wider bank of answers for you. The Fiddleback guys don't make their own handle material - it's purchased thru suppliers.
 
Fiberglass resin is not good enough for a knife handle in my opinion. Color, hardness, and smell are just not good enough. Epoxy resin is what Shadetree uses. AND it is the reason it is so expensive to make.
 
As mentioned, epoxy resin is the way to go.

Phenolics require high heats and pressure to cure properly. No can do on a home scale.

Fiberglass (Specifically the MEK used as a hardener) is nasty to work with, both in process and after curing. Knife makers can tell by the smell if it is made with FG/MEK . Must be used in a very well ventilated area or outside. Runaway cookoffs happen if temperature control is lacking, which is compounded by large volumes. When working with epoxy, a little on your skin is no biggie, but any MEK exposure is bad, especially bad over time/ repeated exposure. It is cheap, but comes at other prices.:barf:

Epoxy is the way to go. Look for quality aero marine grade UV stabilized (otherwise it will yellow over time). Water clear or crystal clear with a cured shore "d" hardness in the mid 80s and low VOCs. Also you need a laminating grade viscosity and a reasonable work time, IE potlife. This is generally determined by the hardener.

Regarding substrates, the resin must be able to saturate the material. Anti-rot, waterproofing coatings etc probably won't work. If water can soak into it, it will probably work.

Paper is a different materiel to work with. It seems most regular printer paper is bleached/ dyed. The resin has a strange effect with some. For instance, bright white paper ended up with a mottled purple wierdness.:confused: Also, flat laid paper runs a risk of putting too much pressure while curing. . .you can squeeze too much resin out. We have tried a lot of flat laid paper variations and very little leaves the shop. Paper is thin, so a lot of layers and it tends to shift in the press when all stickery. :grumpy:


Now, something like paper towels or colored napkins in a mix has possibilities.

Good Luck and. . .expect to squish out and lose a lot of that expensive resin. . .:eek:


 
fod said:
As mentioned, epoxy resin is the way to go.

Phenolics require high heats and pressure to cure properly. No can do on a home scale.

Fiberglass (Specifically the MEK used as a hardener) is nasty to work with, both in process and after curing. Knife makers can tell by the smell if it is made with FG/MEK . Must be used in a very well ventilated area or outside. Runaway cookoffs happen if temperature control is lacking, which is compounded by large volumes. When working with epoxy, a little on your skin is no biggie, but any MEK exposure is bad, especially bad over time/ repeated exposure. It is cheap, but comes at other prices.:barf:

Epoxy is the way to go. Look for quality aero marine grade UV stabilized (otherwise it will yellow over time). Water clear or crystal clear with a cured shore "d" hardness in the mid 80s and low VOCs. Also you need a laminating grade viscosity and a reasonable work time, IE potlife. This is generally determined by the hardener.

Regarding substrates, the resin must be able to saturate the material. Anti-rot, waterproofing coatings etc probably won't work. If water can soak into it, it will probably work.

Paper is a different materiel to work with. It seems most regular printer paper is bleached/ dyed. The resin has a strange effect with some. For instance, bright white paper ended up with a mottled purple wierdness.:confused: Also, flat laid paper runs a risk of putting too much pressure while curing. . .you can squeeze too much resin out. We have tried a lot of flat laid paper variations and very little leaves the shop. Paper is thin, so a lot of layers and it tends to shift in the press when all stickery. :grumpy:


Now, something like paper towels or colored napkins in a mix has possibilities.

Good Luck and. . .expect to squish out and lose a lot of that expensive resin. . .:eek:


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Hmm well, this explains why you typically see the same sorts of materials around. I suppose this would move me to more fabric like papers like cold pressed water color paper or the like.
This certainly seems to be much more sketchy that I initially thought. I still want to have a go though.

I really appreciate everyone taking time to explain these things. Saves me huge time and hopefully mistakes. I imagine I will make a ton of mistakes anyway, hopefully fewer.
Looks like the wisest choice so far is the west systems epoxy. To me the longer to harden the better, a bit like oil painting wet on wet, gives you time to move things if needed.
 
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