Phil Wilson Chef's knife : just some comments

[Cliff Stamp]

I bought a Chef's knife from Phil Wilson (seamount@bigplanet.com) as a wedding gift for a friend. It arrived yesterday and it is very well crafted. The steel is 420HC (0.5% carbon), and the blade is 7" long, ground from 1/8" stock with a distal taper. The knife has a neutral balance and is stable resting on my index and middle finger. The spine is well rounded and should be comfortable under low to medium pressure. The handle is Corian and well shaped to be very comfortable and secure in hand.

Performance wise, well its not mind so unfortunately I can't actually use it. However with a primary grind of about 2 degrees, and an edge that is just barely visible, 0.005" thick near base, thinner towards tip, I have no doubts that the blade will cut very well, among the best I have seen easily. The edge was honed on a diamond rod and then ran a few times on a loaded strop to strengthen the edge without removing too much aggression. The edge will shave a little, but more importantly should be very aggressive when slicing.

In regards to the steel used, Phil does work in a wide variety of steels even the exotic like CPM-S90V, and does true custom work so there would be no problem getting whatever you wanted. I went with 420HC (which is his standard choice for kitchen knives), because of the high corrosion resistance and edge durability. The blade is hardened to 55/56 RC and with just a touchup on the Sharpmakers from time to time should provide a lifetime of quality service. I did a quick check on a Sharpmaker (which I also included as part of the gift) to see if the edge would need to be reprofiled - it didn't.

No picture available as my camera self-destructed some time ago and is out for repair.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Long term update, I recently got this back from the couple I gave it to as a wedding gift. The tip had been bent to about a 45 degree set and the edge was really dull, it had not been sharpened in about five years. I gave them a Sharpmaker as well but some people just don't sharpen knives.

I reset the tip carefully taking it just a bit at a time until it was straight. Ideally the handle should be removed and the blade rehardened. The edge responded very well to the stones. I had been sharpening a lot of softer stainless recently and they were all having burr issues. This was different, is it the steel or the heat treating or was I just in the zone? I'll check again in another five years.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

Several questions:

Do you know what they did to bend the tip? Either way, do you consider that "rough treatment"?

As for the rehardening, is that only to restore the strength at the tip?

Did you only reset the edge, ie not touch the flat grind? Was this because it wasn't necessary or you couldn't do it justice cosmetically?

Generally, what kind of performance does one expect for a custom kitchen knife over an above-average stamped blade? I have personally never used a knife made for the kitchen that is 1/8 inch thick, most being being around 1 or 1.5mm. Would you use one for your own kitchen? What sort of sharpness do you keep them in general? I usually sharpen them until they slice newspaper on a draw, and not any furthur.

 

[Bronco]

No picture available as my camera self-destructed some time ago and is out for repair.

Cliff, I didn't realize you did digital camera testing as well.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Do you know what they did to bend the tip? Either way, do you consider that "rough treatment"?

I asked, the wife didn't know and the husband was away on work. I would assume separation of frozen foods. The tip is *really* thin, similar to a fillet blade. It is made for fine work. I sort of expected this kind of behavior, which is why I went with 420HC vs S90V at the time.

As for the rehardening, is that only to restore the strength at the tip?

Once you have put a set in a blade you have significantly weakened the steel, it will bend much more readily again. You can compensate somewhat by doing a relief temper which is just 25F below the origional temper but you really want to redo the hardening as you have essentially cold forged it.

Did you only reset the edge, ie not touch the flat grind? Was this because it wasn't necessary or you couldn't do it justice cosmetically?

Since there was no gross damage just extensive wear you are only looking at a small fraction of a mm of travel into the primary on sharpening. There would be no need to rework the primary grind in this case. As Phil runs very shallow flat grinds of just a few degrees and his initial edges are essentially sharpened back from zero, it takes a lot of sharpening before the primary needs to be recut.

Generally, what kind of performance does one expect for a custom kitchen knife over an above-average stamped blade?

Compared to an introductory piece you would find in any hardware store, the main immediate difference on this piece is ergonomics as it balances neutral in common grips and the rounded spine and shaped handle. There is also the benefit of the distal taper which gives versatility and I think reduces binding in thick vegetables though I need to confirm that. You also have a thinner and more acute edge so a higher cutting abiilty and ease of resharpening. Then there is the steel issue as you can go from 420HC to S125V and basically 55 to 65 HRC.

Would you use one for your own kitchen?

Yes in AEB-L.

What sort of sharpness do you keep them in general? I usually sharpen them until they slice newspaper on a draw, and not any furthur.

My dedicated kitchen knives have radical edges, they are two Johnston blades, a Japanese utility knife I reground and an old Japanese cleaver I reworked. They are rarely beyond the ability to shave well, they are resharpened as soon as they slip or I notice any deformation on push cuts. In general I frequently tend to use most knives that I am currently evaluating. Currently I am using the Ratweiler and Delica in ZDP. I rarely carry anything that isn't push cutting sharp unless I am having an off day of sharpening.

Cliff, I didn't realize you did digital camera testing as well.

Fairly harsh treatment, it was left outside in the rain. I brought it back mainly as a joke as I knew one of the guys that worked there and wanted to see his reaction when I said it didn't work and he checked the batteries. However he wasn't in and it was sent back for repair. On a fluke it was lost in shipping and I was upgraded to the newest model which was quite impressive at the time though now cell phones give better pictures.

-Cliff

 

[Andrew Taylor]

If you drop a chefs knife on to a hard floor, it should do one of two things, bounce or break. One of my chefs dropped a Global fish filleting knife onto a a quarry tile floor and it snapped a half inch off the tip. I also have a carbon steel Sabatier fish filleting knife and if you bend that, it springs back. I was in George Titchbourne's custom knife shop 2 weeks ago and he took a filleting knife and bent it 90 degrees and it sprung back to shape. I checked the set myself and it was perfect. His heat treating is done by a specialist company who heat treats and cryo-quenches.

That knife sounds very nice especially the corian handles. Nice gift.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I would say the hardening and tempering is faulty.

How can you possibly contend this without knowing the extent the blade was bent before the load was released. All steels also have a yield point and when extended past this they will either stay bent or just crack off. Anyone who implies that the resilence is infinite due to cryogenics or otherwise is making used car salesmen look good.

Since this steel is very ductile it will stretch for quite some distance before it tears so it isn't unusual to allow for very high angle sets. 420HC at 55/56 HRC is very ductile especially when the taper is an extensive as Wilson grinds. I have bent that type of steel many times, it isn't unexpected behavior when it is heavily loaded.

-Cliff

 

[Andrew Taylor]

It really wasn't my intention to start an argument Cliff, just offer some advice. I have been a chef for 37 years, so I handle kitchen knives for a living as it were. It should bend until the moment it snaps. In my experience they don't bend and stay bent. I have a lot of knives, far many than I would ever need, but that is the joy of being a knife collector, with kitchen knives, I can use them many times a day and at work for hours on end.

I never said heat treatment and then cryo-quenching was infinite, in fact I only mentioned in passing with another knife I had seen recently. Cryo treatment does have very great benefits in improving steel though. If you would like to see some information, this site belongs to a Bladeforums member.
http://www.metal-wear.com/

It sounds as though the knifemaker is a friend of yours so I'll step out of the argument and edit my earlier post.

Cheers.

Andrew

 

[me2]

Two issues I'll attempt to address. First, Andrew, what properties do you look for in a chef's knife? I have a friend that's a professional chef and I've toyed with the notion of trying to make a knife for him for a while. Cliff, what do you like about the knife you are discussing here in terms of kitchen use?

Second, why should a chef's knife only be spring steel tempered? That seems soft to me. Should they all be that way, independent of steel type and geometry? Also, keep in mind that dropping a knife and bending the tip while prying some frozen food are different animals. One is impact and the other bending, and the behavior can be very different.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cryo treatment does have very great benefits in improving steel though.

Yes, generally not a flexibility issue however, the main proposed benefit is wear resistance through carbide precipitation. Wilson's knives are cryogenically treated as part of the quench. The steel used in this knife is limited in hardness, even with cryogenic treatment will not obtain near full martensitic hardness. 420HC it is specifically designed for corrosion resistance / toughness. I chose the steel based on the individual it was being bought for not for what I or anyone else would want, just as with any other gift I would buy.

Cliff, what do you like about the knife you are discussing here in terms of kitchen use?

Ergonomics, balance, cutting ability/versatility, corrosion resistance, edge toughness, and ease of sharpening.

Second, why should a chef's knife only be spring steel tempered? That seems soft to me.

As I noted above, this wasn't bought for me but for a friend. 420HC is limited in hardness to about 57/58 HRC and needs oil+cold to get there. Phil works in a variety of steels, I chose 420HC for the corrosion resistance and toughness. I knew it was likely that the knife would be left wet, possibly covered in acidic juices and not improbable that it would see edge impacts against other knives from being thrown in a drawer. My personal kitchen knives are different as noted such as a 66 HRC 1095 paring knife which is less than 1/16" thick with a deep hollow grind and sharpened at 3/5 degrees per side.

One is impact and the other bending, and the behavior can be very different.

Generally yes, the relationship is fairly complicated, even impact isn't trivial as it is different dependent on how you measure it, torsional, notch or un-notched.

-Cliff

 

[Andrew Taylor]

Two issues I'll attempt to address. First, Andrew, what properties do you look for in a chef's knife? I have a friend that's a professional chef and I've toyed with the notion of trying to make a knife for him for a while.

For me, this is pretty much as good as it gets.

http://www.japanese-knife.com/Merch...fe&Product_Code=HSU-HAK1033-EE&Category_Code=

 

[BOK]

And its only $5000!

What are you all waiting for? Go order one

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You can buy the same style of knife for very cheap, Lee Valley used to sell a utility length version for less 20$, laminated carbon steel blade.

-Cliff

 

[Phil Wilson]

Cliff, I see my name mentioned here so may be able to answer some of the questions on the thread. First this kind of feed back on my knives is very welcome. I don't often get it especially on a knife made 5 years ago. I do like 420 for Chef's knives. It is nice to work with is a great steel for a kitchen application as noted here. This version of 420 has 0.5% carbon and the potential hardness after temper is about 58rc max. I use turco for decarb/carbon diffusion protection, 2020 F soak, an oil quench, and a subzero right after oil quench to get it there. I have several of these knives in my kitchen and one in my camper and they get a lot of use. Edge holding is really pretty good and since they are thin sharpening is quick and easy. They respond ok to a plain steel as well. If a knife blade is heat treated correctly it will bend a little before it breaks. Even the harder steels like 10V will do that. If it breaks with out a little deformation then it has not been tempered at a high enough temp, or not tempered at all. Dropping on a concrete floor is a different kind of load. The dynamic forces are so high that usally it will break but there usally will be some evidenve of plastic deformation at the break. Cliff if you want to restore the knife, send it to me and I will regrind the tip area back to good steel. It will be a little shorter but still useable. Removing the handle and re-heat treating would be more work than it is worth. Easier to make a new knife. PHIL

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Thanks for the offer Phil, I straightened it so it cuts just the same as it does before, no difference in handling. It is probably a little weaker now due to the plastic deformation it took, but hopefully they will just leave it for cutting now and pry apart foods with something else.

-Cliff