Pinning Handle to a Full tang Blade?

B

Bushbow

Joined
Jul 6, 2003
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I am sure this has been covered in other threads but try as I might I cannot find what I am looking for. I have been working on a knife (I will post a Pic when I learn how) It is a Kitchen knife that is a chopper style that is 12" overall with a 5 1/4" handle that I made out of Cherry Burl Wood that I cut. The handle slabs look real nice so I tried to just epoxy them with 2 ton epoxy so that I would not have to cover anything up with rivits but the epoxy is pulling away when the knife flexes. Anyhow I need Help with rivits or pins I think brass would look best but I am not sure where to get them or how to install them. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Again I will try and get some photos on here so that you can see the knife and have a better idea of what I mean but as of right now I have a knife with the slabs epoxied onto it's full tang that is all but finished except for two or three pins holding the handle in place for the long haul.

I do have a drill press but need a drill bit to go through the Carbon steel in the handle? What do you recomend?

Thanks for any help.

Bob Urban
East Lansing, MI
 
Ok, I have been doing a little more research and I want to know if straight pins will work if I drill holes through the handle and slabs using a drill press and then pounding a straight pin through and then giving a bit of a mushrooming tap on both ends? This looks like it would not cover any more of the wood than necessary and it should work just fine, or am I not getting something?

Thanks, Bob Urban
 
Welcome Bob. :) I use brass rod for pin stock. You can get it the size you want the pins to be. It comes in one foot lengths. I use 1/8", 5/32" and sometimes 3/16" . You need to have the holes pre-drilled in the tang before heat treat. A carbide bit will drill through hardened steel but they are expensive. I use colbalt bits on unhardened steel to drill my holes. The knife suppliers sell bit sizes just for drilling pin holes. You need a ballpein hammer for peening the pins. I use a 4 oz. for 1/8" and 5/32" pins. A 8 oz. hammer for 3/16". Once you have the handles epoxied on, you cut the pin size you need, peen them flat and sand them smooth. You need to get a mushroom before you sand them smooth. Hope that helps.
Scott

I forgot, if you drill with a, for example 1/8" drill bit, you will have to sand the rod (pinning rod) So it fits snug. It's best to get the bits for drilling pin holes.
 
What is the thickness of your knife that the handle flexes with use??

How long has the wood been drying since cut?

What I would suggest is, put the knife in a 250 degree F preheated oven, and leave it an hour or so. That will break down the epoxy that's on there now, and allow you to take the scales off.

Clean everything up, and start over. The thing is, if you can drill holes in the tang now, you didn't do something right, like heat treatement.
If you had, it would be very hard to drill, if you could drill at all.

I would suggest the book, "How To Make Knives" by Barney, and Loveless.
That will give you an idea of the steps necessary to build a knife, and in what order. You can get a copy from most knifemakers supply houses, or
www.amazon.com.


Edited to add; I wouldn't advise peening, or in any way trying to enlarge pins in wood handles. The odds are that you will crack them. I've seen it happen quite often.
Epoxy on your scales, and pins is quite sufficient to hold very well.
Epoxy must be in a room about 72 degrees + F, to cure properly, and 2 ton devcon for sure. In fact, keep devcon in your house, as it can go bad if stored in a shop that gets too cold, or hot. I've been using that stuff for 20+ years, and like it.

Here's some master supplier links. They should keep you off the streets for awhile going through them,;) but save them for the suppliers URL's.
Get all the catalogs you can, and read them. It will give you a greater range of knowledge as to what's available.
http://ajh-knives.com/

http://ajh-knives.com/supplier-1.html

http://www.cutlerscove.com/links/knifemakersupplies.html

http://www.mijneigenfavorieten.nl/knivelinks2/

http://www.artmetal.com/project/TOC/supplier.html

http://www.stagesmith.com/Metal-links.html

http://www.internetbusinesslinks.net/SupplierList.html

http://www.appaltree.net/aba/supp.htm

:eek:
 
You can get all sorts of different sized pins at your local hardware store. You can use .090" pins if you dont want to cover up alot of the wood. Drill through the slabs with a drill that is a few thousands bigger than the pin and epoxy the pins in. DONT peen the pins because you will split the wood.

If you think you can peen them just a little bit, dont because you will split the wood.

If you think you would like to try peen in them anyway, dont because you will split the wood. (ask me how I know this)

In your situation, straight pins may not work. If the tang is not hardened you could install Loveless style rivets or Corby Type Rivets that will pull the slabs together. You then grind the excess rivet down to the surface of the handle. You can get them at any of the knife supply companies. They are about 2$ a piece. You will also need the correct size step bit for the rivets that you get.

Here is the number for Koval. 800-556-4837.

There are many other knife supply houses but I dont have there numbers handy.

I hope this helps.

Michael

www.AdamMichaelKnives.com
 
Hi Michael

I think you have a few options that may not have been considered. Perhaps the first is the easiest to try without worrying about conseqences. Have you considered hidden epoxy pins? It just means drilling some holes on the inside of the scales and through the tang. The holes should be on slight and varying angles and they do not go all the way through - less than half is better. Four to six holes are good - much more will weaken the wood. Holes in the tang don't have to match the ones in the scales and for that matter, if the tang holes are hard to drill, you can just roughen the tang up (not on the edges where visible) perhaps with a dremel. When you glue up, the holes and rough areas get filled with epoxy and create invisible epoxy 'pins'. The bonus is that if this doesn't work, you can try the next step - and what you tried above will not be visible.

Anything else is going to require drilling holes in the tang and that is difficult on a hardened tang. I've broken a lot of carbide bits trying to drill a very few holes in hard steel. If you try that, go slow and buy extra bits. Be prepeared for a bit of a cluster if the bit breaks wedged in the hole. My other suggestions are based on the premise that the tang holes can be oversized and sloppy because they will be filled with epoxy at glue up.

I have dozen (maybe hundreds) of old dead dull bits. I presume everyone does becasue we aren't the type to throw out junk. :rolleyes: Just chuck up an old bit, which wouldn't cut it's way through hard butter - and melt your way through with friction heat. The heat isn't a problem for the blade unless you are close to the blade and you can solve that risk by wrapping with a wet cloth. Your scale holes need to be clean and neat. Glue the first scale in place. Drill the holes from the new holes in the tang through the wood. (Line them up as you please in the oversize hole. Sharp bits, go slow, use backing). When that's dry, glue the second scale in place and use the holes you just drilled to guide the holes through the second scale. Glue in the pins and finish

I agree with the advice above not to peen your pins. If the scales don't split when you are doing it, there is a good chance they will later as expansion and contraction forces take their toll over the years. It is good to roughen up the hidden part of the pins to give the epoxy something to grab. I use "F" bits for 1/4" pins and #12 bits for 3/16. Alternatively, you can sand the brass rod down till it fits. I've found the latter works well by chucking the rod in the drill press and pinching it between a couple small pieces of sandpaper.

My last suggestion has to do with the epoxy. Use the slowest setting epoxy you can find. They tend to flex slightly rahter than failing. I use Industrial Formulators G2 because it also performs very well on oily woods. Mix it completely for a long time.

Good luck with your project. Post a pic when it's done. We've all faced similar challenges and a happy ending will bring more than a few smiles around here.

Regards

Rob Ridley

Ranger Original Handcrafted Knives
 
I think I have that book sugested above by Loveless but my quick run to the attic did not produce it. Anyway I now have some great sugestions and I will try pinning. Glad to get the advice about not piening the ends of the pins so as to not crack the wood. I would have tried that for sure. The handle wood has been dry for a long time. Five plus tears in doors. A friend cot the burles and I have more so the worst case scenario I have to make new ones. The blade is pretty thin and a bit flexible but the handle is still epoxied on just pulled away a bit at the blade end. I made the knife out of an old, unamed/labeled carbon knife that was huge with a long upswept blade. I cut it off at the length and shape I wanted and reworked the very large handle. The blade seems to be tempered harder at the edge than the spine bcause when I cut it it cut pretty easy from the top to a little past half way and then snapped. I may try and drill it with the slabs on. Is this a bad idea.

Thanks for all the sugestions. - Bob Urban
 
OK not that you all need to here my story but I am pretty excited about this knife. I went to the hardware store and bought some hardened drill bits, a new tube of two ton epoxy(strongest they had) and I came home to give it a shot. the drill bits went right through at the back and middle of the handle but when I got near the blade she began to squeal. Good thing I bought two. I got through the handle and then made pins from a sturdy coat hanger. I cleaned everything real well and roughed up the handle and the slabs a bit. I then heated the handle with a propane torch enough so that the epoxy was not going against a cold piece of steel. Mixed my epoxy real well as suggested and put it all together. I put the pins through the handle and slid the slabs over them. Not sure if that is the best way but it seemed like the easiest. I have it sitting with clamps on it as I type and can't wait to pull them off. Doggone clamps were hard to place with the extra pin sticking out all over. I put in 6 pins by the way. I looked at some of the knives I like on line and though the multiple small pins looked nice so went with it.

Again I will have to get a photo on here when I can. Thanks for the help.

Bob Urban
East Lansing, MI
 
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