plastic bag clothing

[Cliff Stamp]

Davenport shows how to use a large garbage bag to make a windbreaker including hood on his website :

http://www.simplysurvival.com/

locally everyone uses them inside boots when you are stuck (or just too cheap) to actually use waterproof boots. They keep your socks dry and you just dry out the boots at the end of the day.

Working with some sobeys bags I found you can make a decent gloves fairly quickly. First thing is to take something to use as padding, some dry vegetation works well. put this in the bag and put your hand in working the materials around it, or wrap the material around your hand first.

Take the handles of the bag together and twist them into a pseudo-cord, now wrap the cord around the wrist and hook the loop over the thumb. It will hook tight and stay on. You can also use some duct tape over the plastic to make them much tougher.

Alone they don't work well on woods, they get tore up quickly, however you can dig and pile snow with them on and it is better than trying to do it barehanded, especially if you pad them out, just watch crusty snow as it will tear the plastic easily.

-Cliff

 

[gutsy]

i find that putting my socked feet inside plastic baggies and then into my low cut approach shoes works really well for winter /sloppy ,wet approaches . thats the only time i really do anything like that . i dont climb as much as i used to so i usually just wear gore-tex boots but i allways keep a few heavy duty garbage bags in my survival kit just in case [ive had to use them before].

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, it is decent short term, but has its limitations as it is basically a boot with a waterproof liner on the inside instead of the outside, better than no liner though. If you have duct tape you can put them on the outside of the boot and tape it up which works better.

I started with the bags on the hand as I wanted to figure out how to handle extreme cold without the right clothing. Even in decent conditions though I found it really hard to get a fire going as the hands go numb really quick when the temp drops well below zero.

I then tried some things like cutting a shirt up and using it to make gloves but most undershirts are not made out of material which can handle snow/wet well, and you end up with a soggy mess on your hands and now less material to protect your core.

However if you take a light undershirt and wrap it for a mitt and then overlay the bag you have a decent enough mitt which is waterproof and decently thermally resistant.

-Cliff

 

[Codger_64]

I became famous on the BNR one early spring for dressing folks in black garbage bags. It was the best I could do for immersion hypothermia, and it worked. It allowed me to transport the peeps to shelters where they could dry and warm, inside and out, while awaiting evac. One pair, I had to evac myself. The oldest was 76 and had a heart condition. His numnutz son, the big city attorney, thought a peaceful spring float trip on the BNR would do Dad a world of good. Water temp was 58, air 64, wind 5-15 mph. All of these folks were in first stage when I pulled them from the river, and all recovered nicely. Tha bags stopped wind chill and evaporative cooling, and provided a bit of solar heating, though not enough to count. Had we been in the wilderness area, things would have been much more serious. Evac would have been much harder, and shelters limited to improvised, not comfy tents with sleeping bags and campers willing to pitch in to help them. And I say again, don't move a person who can't tell you their name, who is in second or third stage hypothermia!

Codger

 

[Cliff Stamp]

And I say again, don't move a person who can't tell you their name, who is in second or third stage hypothermia!

Build a shelter around them? In extreme cases, is there actually anything you can do with essentially no equipment. What about if you have to move them to get them to help, or is it best to leave them and bring the help to them?

-Cliff

 

[Kevin the grey]

I,d tip my cap to you but its made from a birds nest and the eggs would fall out ! L:O:L

I,ll have to check the link out . I can see a breaker or poncho type deal . I must admit the hood angle intrigues me . I have often heard of polypropolene used in ski wear . I think dry cleaner bags are made from poly .
The only trouble I would have is stopping the hanger from scratching ! L:O:L

 

[Codger_64]

Build a shelter around them? In extreme cases, is there actually anything you can do with essentially no equipment. What about if you have to move them to get them to help, or is it best to leave them and bring the help to them?

-Cliff

Yes, build a shelter around them (even trash bag clothing). Stop the heat loss. Don't rub them, or try to exercise them. You will cause cold blood from the extremities to rush back to the core and they can go into cardiac arrest. You can't even give them warm liquids, you could drown them. Bring help to them. Don't try to transport. The body has failsafes set with priorities. It will sacrifice the appendages to save the core. It will sacrifice the core to save the brain. Rewarming in extreme cases is best left to pros. There is a lot you can do in the early stages if you learn to recognize them. Even self-rescue is possible if required in early stages. In later stages, only outside intervention will help. Delerium and loss of coordination makes self-rescue a near impossibility. In the later stages, the victim might even feel warm, relaxed (shivering is over), and safe. Sleep is common. Death may soon follow. Even on a bluebird spring day.

Codger

PS- Skylizard or another member may be able to give better specifics.

 

[Shann]

Brings back memories of my Mom putting bread bags on my feet before sticking them in my old snowmobile boots.

 

[gutsy]

im gettin cold just reading these posts . it actually reminds me of one time time i had hypothermia on the river , it was 38, overcast, and the wind was blowing. i was in the middle of raft giude training and didnt have anything to keep me dry [couldnt afford a spray top]. i just remember the intense shivering and not being able to speak without chomping holes in my tongue . i stopped shivering and my speech slurred real bad and i couldnt think straight , like i couldnt control anything and felt like sleeping for days . my instructor found me and put me in a bus for a while , it was kinda weird feeling there for a while but after i warmed back up the pain in my extremeties made me scream. 38 degrees doesnt sound that bad when youre dry and reasonably protected but it can kill you quik if youre wet , dehydrated , out of calories or not prepared for the environs youll be in . sorry guys , just thought id share .

 

[Thomas Linton]

If you have the materials, an intact plastic bag over the foot, followed by sock, followed by second plastic bag keeps the socks dry and effective as insulation.

If much work is being done, the feet will get clammy, but they stay warm until you stop working. At that point, your feet will be less warm but still warmer than if the socks get wet from the outside or from trapped sweat.

Some folks don't like the feel of plastic against their feet. They like the feel of frostbite even less.

 

[gutsy]

roger that , linton

 

[SubaruSTi]

I wear Red Wing model 1412's in the winter. Great quality and warmth all around everyday use boots. they have:Full grain, waterproof Ebbtide leather
GORE-TEX Bootie w/400 gram Thinsulate. very nice boots, and you can wear them anywhere really so your always prepared.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Stop the heat loss. Don't rub them, or try to exercise them. You will cause cold blood from the extremities to rush back to the core and they can go into cardiac arrest.

What about time, at what point would you consider moving them if you have to factor in the time it would take for help to get back to them. Or can you assume you can stabilize them in that condition? When you build the shelter around them at what temperature do you try to maintain? What about if they are not breathing, have been underwater for some time for example, can you safely move them then.

-Cliff

 

[Codger_64]

Heck, I am not an MD, and my SAR work was some years ago. If someone is not breathing, ventalate them (clear the airway first). If there is no heartbeat, full CPR. But a hypothermic person may have a very faint heartbeat, and very shallow breathing.

In the scenario I described, the girl and her boyfriend were in first stages descending (getting worse). Moving them was imperative to stop the slide. The old man was stable, coherant, but also sliding fast. We power-stroked him and his son to a ranger station stat. Had any of them been worse, We would have stayed as attendants and sent others for help (1 hour return max), or gone ourselves for help.

In real world immersion trauma, real facilities with experienced medicos are required. From what I recently have read, new techniques for rewarming have been developed showing great promise for recovery from near death that a few years back would have been death. As a matter of fact, cryo techniques are being used to induce nearly the same state for surgeries.

Sorry I can't offer more, but I won't BS you about my knowledge or skills. Sometimes knowing what not to do is as important as knowing what action to take.

Codger

 

[Thomas Linton]

Cliff, if you have the time a Google of "hypothermia" + "treatment" will return a zillion (That's a very large number. ) hits - some from very weighty authorities indeed.

Just my very basic understanding. Curent thinking is that it is very important for persons in exterme hypothermia to be handled as gently as possible lest you kill them. Also, heating from inside out seems safest vs. active heating of the outside because the second may release a gush of cold blood from the chilled outside layers that can stop the heart. But it's hard to heat inside out in the field if they're unconscious -- without special equipment. So the advice is often to passively heat and get pro help on scene ASAP.

 

[gutsy]

ive got my brothers old emt books , i think im going to look through them and see what i can find .in my limited experience outdoors ive found that prevention is key. doing something about it [after you have already fallen into the creek] is the hard part .this thread is very informative and i hope to learn lots so i can spread the word .btw hey cliff, howya doin? sorry about the others poo pooing your posts . give holler sometime.

 

[sodak]

There was a terrible blizzard that raced through the Dakotas and surrounding areas back in the 1880's. It was a very fast moving storm that caught a lot of kids at school and dad's out in the barns and fields. Anyway, there were MANY accounts of unfortunate people who "almost" froze to death and were brought inside next to a wood burning stove. After they warmed up, they got up, and promptly died of massive heart/pulmonary failure. I forget the exact cause, but what I took to heart was that if you are warming up someone from hypothermia, DON'T let them get up. Keep them flat. It takes trained professionals to be able to warm them safely. I'll try to look back into it and see what the exact cause was.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

In real world immersion trauma, real facilities with experienced medicos are required.

That is pretty much what I figured, thanks for the note about warm/cold blood, something else to look into. Pretty idiotic that this is the number one way that people die here in the winter and I have spent a lot of time fooling with things like friction based firestarting and have little idea how to warm someone up in such a situation and could kill them by overheating. In general though health gets a huge back seat to woodcraft for "survival" discussion, though of course this is a knife forum not a medical one which probably explains that.

So the advice is often to passively heat and get pro help on scene ASAP.

Yeah, the basic problem here is that ASAP is often a *long* time, many people who go hunting can end up hours away from camp, which is hours away from a main road which is hours away from a town which is hours away from an actual hospital. There are lots of small towns here which have no emergency medical assistance. Where I live for example there is no hosiptial, no doctor, not even a fire/police station and this isn't uncommon. You have to drive to the next town to just hit a MD with a small practice and an actual emergency room is two towns away. In the winter it isn't uncommon for roads to be closed and there is only one road in and out of the town.

ive found that prevention is key.

Yeah I use the Karate Kid defence, I have found that it is very difficult to fall through ice if you don't walk on it. I treat ice like fire tinder, wait until you know you have enough tinder and then increase it anyway, it never huts to have more than you need. When I am absolutely sure the ice is thick enough to walk on, I wait and let it freeze some more.

sorry about the others poo pooing your posts .

That is of no consequence, if it entertains you then read it, otherwise ignore it. If you are concerned about blow up as some questions really can't be discussed on the forums without flames, specific comparisons will set some people off, and some specific brands have enough of a cult following that the merits can't be debated, a thread on a Steel Heart vs a Mora 2000 for example would go nowhere fast, you can ask me things in email, I am usually fairly prompt.

-Cliff

 

[Codger_64]

Cliff, few places on earth are out of reach of a rescue team and air medevac. It is expensive, and sometimes weather dependant, but countless lives are saved each year with choppers and experienced crews. Had the people I helped been too bad off to move, medflight would have been called from two counties away, 30 minutes to arrival, another 15 to get the team to the scene, then another 30 minutes to the hospital with treatment commencing enroute. Likely warmed IV solution in a stratigic location. Just a guess is the femoral artery, which no way, no how am I going to puncture on my own. I gave the people warmed jello (liquid) because they could swallow. A trained tech can insert a feeding tube to put warmed liquid directly in the stomach of an unconcious person. A dufus like me might insert the tube in a lung and drown them.

Codger

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...few places on earth are out of reach of a rescue team and air medevac.

I think the closest to here is about 650 km away, cell phone reception isn't consistent in most places outside the urban areas (they are not widespread either) and almost no one has sat phones so actually contacting outside help isn't trivial. The main reason people get into trouble is that they never plan for worse case senarios, I have done XXX for 20 years without a problem, why would I need ZZZ. Well it only takes once for it to matter. It is kind of fun going for a polar bear swim in the winter in a river next to your house, sucks when you are not.

-Cliff