Please Advise Ontario Spec Plus VS Rat

[mthall47]

Does anyone have, or seen/used either of the following Ontario knives:
1] The Spec Plus series OR
2] The RAT series??

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have used several of the Spec Plus line they have a few drawbacks :

-initial edge geometry and sharpness will be less than optimal, expect to sharpen and likely have to reshape the edge

-the handle tends to be abrasive and insecure with extended use, and the sharp end hook problemtic

-the steel performance varies from extremely brittle to too soft, the quality control is really low

On the positive they are among the cheapest knives you can get, and if you luck into a decent one you will likely be pleased with the performance/price ratio. I would consider up grading at least to the Becker line.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

While I don't personally care for the others in the RAT series, I found the RAT7 to be a good field knife.

The handle fits my hand well, and the micarta provides a secure grip.

The knife is well ground, and the full flat grind and 3/16" 1095 steel work well in a knife designed for moderately hard use. If I was having a custom made this size, I would probably use L6 or A8, but 1095 is decent, especially when not left too hard has many production advantages, cheap, easy to find, not too hard on the disk grinders used in factories, easy to batch heat treat, etc.

It has a fairly netural balance, so it will not chop nearly as well as a more blade heavy knife like the Swamp Rat Camp Tramp, but will handle most camp type chores fairly well.

Mine came decently sharp (I think mine was from EDITED : BAYOUR RNIFE WORKS) and the heat treat is solid.

If you do a search on the forums, you will see that Ontario has been plauged by heat treat and quality control problems, based on the feedback of those that have posted. The RTAK series seems especially prone to blade failure.

I think a regular old machete, be it Ontario, Martindale or Tramontina is a more versatile tool than the RTAK at a much lower price point.

On the other hand, the RAT team (Perrin and Randall) seem to deal with warranty issues well, see numerous posts on their forum at www.ontariorat.com

Which model were you looking at and for what uses?

The Ontario SP8 paired with a good folder like the Rucksack or perhaps a Manix and folding saw would make a solid outdoor combination.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

While I don't personally care for the others in the RAT series, I found the RAT7 to be a good field knife.

How does it compare to the CU/7?

The RTAK series seems especially prone to blade failure.

Edge geometry, as blades get larger and work gets heavier your tolerances have to be tighter. The RTAK I had had an edge thickness of 0.015" at spots (large variance along the edge), this rippled easily.

I think a regular old machete, be it Ontario, Martindale or Tramontina is a more versatile tool than the RTAK at a much lower price point.

If it had a decent handle, a solid edge and a quality heat treat and not as pointy a tip, I would prefer that class of blade over a non-ground machete. However to be frank you will note little improvement on grasses, light vegetation, scrub and brush. In fact as a longer machete has similar weight the machete would take it easily. However a primary grind does make it more capable on thicker wood work, so it is a one-knife arguement again. A machete and small axe is many times over more functional.

-Cliff

 

[Kiri]

I have the SP6 knife which has a bowie shaped balde not dissimilar to a Ka-Bar but a bit longer.

This knife came razor sharp out of the box. Has very nice balance. feels great in the hand. I also like the sheath which on mine was a combination of leather and cordura with two snap retaining straps. This is silent, very secure and comfortable. (though Kydex would be more weather proof)

The synthetic handle seems rock solid in terms of its attatchment to the blade. It is a little more slippery though than Kraton for example. The grooves provide good grip but if it was covered in fat or blood for example might prove less secure than other materials.

I really like Ontario knives in that they are comparitively cheap and I think I got a good one.

Many people have commented on the variable heat treat ...... personally I have had no problems.

Cheers

K.

 

[knifetester]

How does it compare to the CU/7?

The handle on the RAT7 is much better for me too such a degre that it swamps out any other factor. I really don't like the Becker handle design.

The BK7, other than the handle, is a really nice design. The initial edge quality was much higher on the BK7, and the primary grind is more acute. I don't care for the serrated thumb ramp.

The BK7 exhibited superior edge retention on cardboard and rope, and had no trouble splitting kindling size wood. The steel on the BK7 seemed significantly harder than the RAT7.

The two knives are fairly similiar in terms of balance, sheath quality, etc.

For me it comes down to the handle, and the BK7 handle is just not suited for my hand. The RAT7 handle is suprisingly nice, much nice than the squared off blocks on the RTAK.

Note that Justin is offering his RD series in a 7" class, the RD7. This is basically an old 5160 Steelheart style knife, in fact I think the first of the series were ground from Steelheart "apprentice" blanks. For a harder use knife (it is 1/4" thick vs the 3/16" of the RAT) at a similiar price point, I think the RD series is superior to both. However, until Justin returns from Iraq availability will probably be an issue. As well, I think 5160, being tougher, is probably a better choice than 1095. At least for my uses.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I really don't like the Becker handle design.

Yeah, I see it as the weakest element of the knfie.

Note that Justin is offering his RD series in a 7" class, the RD7.

Has he changed the grips? I like the blade on my old SHBM but the grip leaves a lot to be desired. It is thin and the end hook is problematic.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

Has he changed the grips?

No, they are the old Bird's Beak Busse style.

It is thin and the end hook is problematic.

My thoughts exactly. However, when I order from him again, I will be getting thicker micarta and no birds beak.

While the current grip is not ideal for me, it is still better than most.

Probably the best handle design for chopping for me is that used on the valaint golok. The problem is in execution and materials. The buffalo horn cracks really easy, it does not stand up to impacts at all.

If Valiant could work out their QC and shipping issues, they would really be a force in the knife world. However, they get their knives from dozens of tiny shops and many individual makers, so it is not likely to happen.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

However, they get their knives from dozens of tiny shops and many individual makers ...

Bill Martino had the exact same problems initally bringing in khukuris, they eventually just got a shop of their own. It took awhile to get to this level of course, but that is what Valiant should be aiming towards. Start small with just 1-2 guys and maybe offer premium and village grade, similar again to HI.

-Cliff

 

[mthall47]

I appreciate everyone's feedback.
What I am really looking for is a knife primarily as a defense/fighting purpose (of course I am hoping to never need it for that), but also want one fairly massive but
without spending much over $100.00 That makes me a bit limited. I love the look and feel of the D2 blade on the Kershaw Outcast but do not like the shape and do not like the strong forward balance. Want more of a neutral balance, with a good hefty feel to the grip/handle. I want a combo of fighting bowie/work knife hybrid if this makes any sense. I looked at the Becker BK9 but did not like the rough finish on the blade. What do you all think of the Cold Steel Trail Master line?? Any other suggestions?? I also have a new, never used Cold Steel 7" peace keeper which I am considering offering, along with some cash, on a potential trade, but first need to figure out what my first and second choices are.

 

[martin j]

You really want a 7+ inch knife for SD???? Are you sure your going to have it on you in the unlikely scenario when you need it????? If thats really what your looking for, none of the knives you mentione are optimised for SD, sure they'll work but a 9-inch kitchen knife will give you more reach and be faster in-hand.
If that's what you want wouldn't a gun be easier to carry then a big knife????? If I'm preparing for a situation where I need a bowie instead of a good folder I'd rather prepare for it with a gun, imho. Martin

 

[Kiri]

The Ontario SP6 knife would be a good choice as a fighting knife and is indeed marketed as a "fighter" (and it is cheap.)

Length and shape of blade for martial use is of course a very personal preference which depends on your situation and how you have been trained.

I personally like a blade that is around 7"

(however I also quite like shorter blades of around 4")

Theres no doubt that a 18" HI Ang Khola would have a certain "Combat effectiveness" !

Are you carrying this as a concealed back up weapon with a firearm as a main weapon ? Are you carrying it as a military user (Ie on your webbing) or as a LEO on your belt kit ? or just as a private citizen ?

If you are interested in the price range of The Spec Plus series then also look at:

Ka-Bar (Better quality control)

Cold Steel (Avoid any of their 420SZ knives IMHO) The Recon Scout Or Recon Tanto (if you like Tantos) are both excellent choices and cheaper than the Trailmasters.

Camillus (Better Quality Control)

Spyderco (Check out the Bob lum Tanto, smaller blade but nice, I believe they stil have a few at quite a good price)


Or go just a bit better...............

Swamp Rat (You can pick up a Camp Tramp for around $139) This is a little bit more expensive but you wont regret it. Even though marketed as a Camp knife this is sharp as hell, nicely balanced and has a military style penetrator tip. Fantastic Steel

Fallkniven A1, Garm, NL Series etc. Again far far better in quality, nice steel...

The TOPS range is worth checking out too...

Obviously you can move up a lot in price with factory..... or go custom.

K

 

[knifetester]

What I am really looking for is a knife primarily as a defense/fighting purpose. . .

Well, that changes everything. For me, the best fighting knife would be the lightest knife possible, perhaps a Victorinox Classic. That way it would not slow me down as I ran away.

Also, I could put a whistle on it and blow as I ran to attract attention, then maybe the bad guy would not chase me.

Run, run, run a way and live to run another day is my motto. High School Track and Field were the best self defense courses I ever took.

As an alternative to something light, I would choose something real expensive and flashy. That way, I can throw it on the ground and hopefully it will distract whoever is trying to hurt me long enough for me to pull a vanishing act.

Those are my real answers, no joking, no kidding around.

 

[James Green Dragon]

I own both an Ontario SP6 and a SR Camp Tramp.

There is simply no comparisson in quality - enough has already been said about that. And an individual's preference for a 'foit'n Noif' can be highly subjective... So some simple observations:

Overall length - about 1/2" difference, SP6 being about 13" OA / CT about 12.5"

Blade: SP6 is an 8" blade, aprox 7.25" of which is cutting edge. The choil is too small to be useable for my hands / CT is a 7.5" blade with a large, very useful choil nearly 1.5" long - 6" cutting edge. CT's blade is also thicker and far wider at about 2" / SP6 is only about 1.25" wide in comparisson.

Others have said far more than I intend to about QC & toughness but holding each knife in my hands, it is obvious that the CT is a much more beefy & hardy knife.

Handle: Both sport 'rubberized' handles - think Ontario uses Kraton. Swamp Rat uses Resperene C. And this is really an area where they (SR) shine - CT's handle is far more comfortable and much more durable to boot. Though I don't really have a problem with the SP6's handle like many others do.

Heft: I'm not certain of exact weights but the CT is far heavier then SP6. And far more blade heavy. A little too blade heavy for a fighter maybe, though choking up on the choil area will minimize that (at the expense of some blade length). SP6 balances about .5" in front of guard. CT balances about 1" in front of handle.

Out of box sharpness: CT takes that one hands down. Without reprofiling, the SP6 cannot compete in that regard, though it is sharp enough to shave hair & would be an effective weapon out of the box (it should be, they market it as their Fighter).

If I were going to choose between them purely based on which would be a better fighter, I might take the SP6 - it's lighter, faster and longer. Neither blade is very comfortable (for me) in reverse grip as a prefer that for smaller blades. And if by fighting you mean 'duelling' then it would be the forward grip that I would adopt anyway.

Cheers,

JGD

 

[shao.fu.tzer]

Well I bought an Ontario SP14 (10" blade tanto) for $24 and I must have gotten a good one, because I have put it through its paces and its still in one piece. I decided I wasn't going to go easy on it. I've jabbed and stabbed almost any kind of material you can think of (including a wide variety of cans and sheet metal). The teflon(?) coating is worn in a few places, but there has been no tip deformation at all and the edge can still slice a free falling leaf in half. I couldn't be happier for what I paid for it.

Shao

 

[Ming65]

How does it compare to the CU/7?
-Cliff

I've owned both (C/U7 and RAT7) and marginally prefer the RAT.

- The ergonomics are better for me, giving a greater variety of grip postions, better as a makeshift chopper and better for fine work.

- It's been subject to the same chopping, batoning and camp-knife duties as the C/U7 was with no discernable difference in edge holding or durability.

- Looks sexier

I should qualify this with the fact that I'm no longer a heavier user of either. My style of adventure has changed in the last few years and I only seem to need the 7" blade about once a year. The last time I did a extended riverboat/bush camp up North (in our tropical Kimberley region) the locals up there loved the RAT7. As is the way with aboriginal people, property is a collective thing and the RAT7 did become (to borrow another makers brand name) the camp tramp. I managed to rescue it and bring it home.

My RAT

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

For the price, the Ontario SPEC-PLUS line isn't bad, but you may well have to put a new edge on it. The Kabar/Camillus knives are okay, but not great. Cold Steel's Trailmasters are great, but do you really want a knife that big for EDC? I wouldn't!

Take a look at the "Hissatsu" from CRKT . . . less than $100, and totally bada$$ed!

For something smaller, for EDC, I'd recomend a CS pushdagger or mini Culloden.