Please help me understand waterstone

P

Philippe Gagnon

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May 11, 2016
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11
Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I hope I'm in the correct sub-forum.

I'm somewhat of a beginner in sharpening, I started in 2013, but got serious in the last 6 mounth. I have the following stones : Nortin india IB8 combo, Spyderco medium ceramic and a Naniwa Super Stone 400-1000-5000 set and a generic 140 diamond plate for flattening.

When I use the Norton india and the Spyderco medium I get very good results. I can shave arm hair on both side and push cut paper. But when I use the waterstones I can't get the same results even though it feels a lot easier to maintain angle and my bevel width is a lot more consistent.

I really want to get this right because I think waterstones are more enjoyable to use and the feedback is awesome compared to hard stones. But for the moment I only seem to get beautiful finished bevels with less than impresive sharpness...

Is there a particular technique that is better with these somewhat soft stones ? Somethig similar happened to someone here ?

Thank you !
 
I've never used the Naniwa SS, but if the stone is soft at all or prone to making mud you should finish each progression with some backhone/trailing passes. Is sometimes a good idea to rinse the stone as well prior to finishing off.

I'll do a few leading passes once the bevel is set and ground at a given stone to make sure the edge is de-burred. Once the edge is burr free, a few very light trailing passes.

On softish stones it is almost impossible to get a nice clean apex with a leading pass to finish, the exact opposite of something like the India or ceramic stones.

Edit to add: I went through a similar adjustment when learning on my Norton waterstones and to a lesser extent on my Kings.

And yes, the Korin videos are a good resource.
 
Deadbox_Hero : I will watch Korin's video even though I feel like I wached way too much knife video lol.

HeavyHanded : I will try that ! Good idea.
Edit : Does that mean that I'm somewhat limited with soft stones ? Is it easier with hard waterstones ?

Thanks to both of you.
 
Of your set I might do a few when coming off the 1k and certainly to finish on the 5k. Would not worry about the 400 and the 1k is optional, unless stopping at that level of finish for a utility edge. You'll see a big improvement right away if this is part of the issue, just make sure not to overdo or you'll form another burr.

I also swear by some paper stropping a la Murray Carter, but prefer to do mine with dry paper over a coarse dry stone or over one of my Washboards (link below).
 
Sounds like it's one of two things:

1 - Your grit progression. The Norton IB8 coarse side is somewhere in the 120-200 grit range. The fine side is more like 320. Then you are going to around 800 with the Spyderco ceramic. That is a decent progression to get you a good working edge. When you are using the Naniwa stones, your coarsest grit is the 400. I don't know how fast the Naniwa stone cuts, but it's probably not as aggressive as the India (assuming you have a steel that responds well to Aluminum Oxide abrasive).

2 - You may be rounding off the edge on the higher grit water stones as you polish them.

I assume you are using oil on the Norton stone, using the ceramic dry (and keeping oil off of it), and using the water stones with water (and also keeping the oil off of them).

You might try a progression of following your Spyderco ceramic with the 1000 Naniwa and test to see if it is less sharp afterwards, and then go to the 5000 and check again. If you are taking a sharp edge off the Spyderco medium and then are making it duller by use of the water stones, it may be in your technique on the water stones. Just use some permanent marker on the blade edges and use a magnifying glass or loupe after every few passes to see where you are hitting the edge and then adjust based on your observations.
 
My naniwa super stone is very soft if I do an edge leading stroke it has and will bite the stone , I do edge trailing only on my super stones .,I'd be willing to bet the edge is hitting the stone .

Light pressure is a must on Waterstones. Also make sure if your burr sharpening all the burr is removed. Again stopping strokes help this a lot .

It's also possible you aren't hitting the edge of the blade only the bevel . The sharpie trick will let you know where you are out .

I went through this exact thing my first couple attempts at Waterstones sharpening, I'd kill my edge nearly every time going to a finishing stone .
 
Spartan00 : I never tried other waterstones, but yes the super stones a very soft, even the 5k is not that hard. I will have to adjust and use a lot of edge trailing strokes. I'm so used to edge leading on hard fixed abrasive stones.

Last night I sharpened an easy to sharpen knife, a carbon steel K-Sabatier 10", it was not that dull but not sharp by any standard.

I used back & forth strokes (using whole length) on the 1k until I raised very small burr along the whole length, then I deburred on the stone with some light alternated leading strokes at an increased angle (this is how I do it on the hard stone, it still works on waterstone but is a lot trickier). I then did some more light strokes at the real angle to even things out and then stropped lightly on the stone. At this point it was the sharpest I ever got on waterstones.

On the 5k I used the same technique without raising a burr and using light pressure (I think I would have been better with even lighter pressure). Checked to make sure there was no burr or wire often.

By the end I was somehow satisfied with the results, I could slice phonebook paper cleanly with and accross the grain. Push cutting was good with the grain but not there against the grain.

I will keep practicing and using even lighter pressure while finishing and probaly only use trailing stokes on the 5k. Waterstones prove to be a challenge but I'm seeing improvements.

BTW I use the magic marker trick a lot, sometime at every stroke when in doubt.

Edit to clarify : I know it's a long post and maybe it's not clear (english is not my first language), but I didn't see that much improvement from the 5k and I think the coarser edges I get from my non-waterstones are better, at least I didn't ruin it this time. This sharpening session seemed to last forever since I was so meticulous and slow lol.

jc57 : Next time I sharpen, I will try your idea of going from sharp after ceramic to waterstone and evaluate. Thanks.
 
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Philippe Gagnon said:
Spartan00 : I never tried other waterstones, but yes the super stones a very soft, even the 5k is not that hard. I will have to adjust and use a lot of edge trailing strokes. I'm so used to edge leading on hard fixed abrasive stones.

Last night I sharpened an easy to sharpen knife, a carbon steel K-Sabatier 10", it was not that dull but not sharp by any standard.

I used back & forth strokes (using whole length) on the 1k until I raised very small burr along the whole length, then I deburred on the stone with some light alternated leading strokes at an increased angle (this is how I do it on the hard stone, it still works on waterstone but is a lot trickier). I then did some more light strokes at the real angle to even things out and then stropped lightly on the stone. At this point it was the sharpest I ever got on waterstones.

On the 5k I used the same technique without raising a burr and using light pressure (I think I would have been better with even lighter pressure). Checked to make sure there was no burr or wire often.

By the end I was somehow satisfied with the results, I could slice phonebook paper cleanly with and accross the grain. Push cutting was good with the grain but not there against the grain.

I will keep practicing and using even lighter pressure while finishing and probaly only use trailing stokes on the 5k. Waterstones prove to be a challenge but I'm seeing improvements.

BTW I use the magic marker trick a lot, sometime at every stroke when in doubt.

Edit to clarify : I know it's a long post and maybe it's not clear (english is not my first language), but I didn't see that much improvement from the 5k and I think the coarser edges I get from my non-waterstones are better, at least I didn't ruin it this time. This sharpening session seemed to last forever since I was so meticulous and slow lol.

jc57 : Next time I sharpen, I will try your idea of going from sharp after ceramic to waterstone and evaluate. Thanks.
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IMHO you should just use the Naniwa from start to finish.The 400 can easily pick up the beginning of most jobs, no need to use the India or the ceramic in your progression.

I would also highly recommend you wrap a sheet of plain paper around the coarse side of your India stone and strop with that after coming off the 5k. For a utility edge you might stop at the 1k and strop on paper. This will clean up the edge and polish up any residual burrs that might need more attention. You might even finish off on the paper at a slightly higher angle with a few passes at very light pressure to burnish the apex.

Waterstones have a learning curve and the softer ones are known for making catchy edges when finished with a backhone pass. Takes a little dialing in.
 
HeavyHanded : I will try the paper strop, do you use newsprint like Murray Carter does, does it even matter what kind of paper ?
 
Finishing stones are overrated . The higher the grit the smoother the edge . Personally I like on bite to it . Use your 400 only and when finishing use crazy light pressure (weight of knife ),with 1 for 1 alternating edge trsiling strokes about 20 passes. If your not 90% done of the coarse stone your wasting your time .
 
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Philippe Gagnon said:
HeavyHanded : I will try the paper strop, do you use newsprint like Murray Carter does, does it even matter what kind of paper ?
Click to expand...

I prefer copy or writing paper over a dry stone, preferably a coarse stone - the India is perfect - just make sure to brush it off with your hand first so there's no loose grit on the surface under the paper.

A few light passes on newsprint over one of your waterstones also work well but the paper tends to get soaked and swollen pretty quickly, and doesn't shine up the burrs as readily.



FWIW, I tend to run paring and boning knives to 1k, utility patterns to 4k, Chef knives to 8k. They all get stropped on plain paper as a final step.
 
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So this is just a little update in case someone in the same situation as me reads this, anyway...

I kept practising with waterstone (A LOT), I practised on many different knives. I also purchased a Shapton Glass 500 and a Naniwa Professional 1000.

First I must say every advise I got here worked, especially the edge trailing strokes and the light pressure. I watched some video from a professional sharpener, his name is Peter Nowlan, he explains his "pressure reduction" method to deburr and finish and it just clicked with me. I get the edge I like on the 1000 and then go from there, or just leave a 1000 edge on the knife, nice and very bity.

Finishing with edge trailing strokes (really really light) on the super stones is a must as they are very soft, I really did realise how soft they are the first time I used the Shapton, this one is very hard.

I also played around with paper strops with mixed results, sometimes I just prefer the edge straight off the stones. I'm sure it has to do with my technique. I'm also interedted in 1u diamond paste and balsa strops but at the moment I'm not sure the cost involed is really worth it.
 
Well let me say thank you!
I am in the same boat. Previously using a sharp maker or dmt diamond hones I purchased a set of Naniwa specialty stones (400, 800, 3000, 5000) and had the same results as you. Felt like they created too much slick and no edge despite polished look and seemingly hitting the angle.
So I guess I will have to stick to edge trailing strokes (cut the stone already slightly) and looking up the video you recommended... also need to look up the whole paper stropping thing.
So again, thank you so much for this thread!

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Stick to the basics and pay attention to your angle control and you won't gouge the stones, I still use a back and forth stroke when sharpening to a burr and these stones will tell you right away if you are over your angle.

When deburring I will use a few very gradually lighter edge leading strokes similar to what straight razor guys do (zoop-zoop style, look it up).

For finishing and cleaning up the apex, I use slow and light (gradually lighter) edge trailing passes, not a lot or you will raise a very small foil-like burr. This will clean the apex and take-off the micro-damage done by the loose abrasive on the apex. At the end it is not even the weight of the knife.

Since learning this technique, I don't mess around with cork, soft wood or felt to deburr and it is way more gentle on the edge.

Anyway, I make this sound like I'm all done from learning haha, far from this...you should see me do this stuff I sill struggle from time to time but I love it.
Look up Peter Nowlan stuff (blog and videos) he explains this stuff so well.

Good luck.
 
Philippe Gagnon said:
Stick to the basics and pay attention to your angle control and you won't gouge the stones, I still use a back and forth stroke when sharpening to a burr and these stones will tell you right away if you are over your angle.

When deburring I will use a few very gradually lighter edge leading strokes similar to what straight razor guys do (zoop-zoop style, look it up).

For finishing and cleaning up the apex, I use slow and light (gradually lighter) edge trailing passes, not a lot or you will raise a very small foil-like burr. This will clean the apex and take-off the micro-damage done by the loose abrasive on the apex. At the end it is not even the weight of the knife.

Since learning this technique, I don't mess around with cork, soft wood or felt to deburr and it is way more gentle on the edge.

Anyway, I make this sound like I'm all done from learning haha, far from this...you should see me do this stuff I sill struggle from time to time but I love it.
Look up Peter Nowlan stuff (blog and videos) he explains this stuff so well.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Nice well done, show us pics :D

Yea, if your angles are dead on you won't gouge the stones. But the more traditional technique is to only apply pressure on the trailing strokes.

Haha YES, you never stop learning. I have been humbled many times.

The next step is making pretty pretty bevels that are also insanely sharp.

Most of us it's either one or the other :D
 
Philippe Gagnon said:
Stick to the basics and pay attention to your angle control and you won't gouge the stones, I still use a back and forth stroke when sharpening to a burr and these stones will tell you right away if you are over your angle.

When deburring I will use a few very gradually lighter edge leading strokes similar to what straight razor guys do (zoop-zoop style, look it up).

For finishing and cleaning up the apex, I use slow and light (gradually lighter) edge trailing passes, not a lot or you will raise a very small foil-like burr. This will clean the apex and take-off the micro-damage done by the loose abrasive on the apex. At the end it is not even the weight of the knife.

Since learning this technique, I don't mess around with cork, soft wood or felt to deburr and it is way more gentle on the edge.

Anyway, I make this sound like I'm all done from learning haha, far from this...you should see me do this stuff I sill struggle from time to time but I love it.
Look up Peter Nowlan stuff (blog and videos) he explains this stuff so well.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
Thanks a bunch! I will try to keep these things in mind and keep on practicing. Very curious how things will turn out.

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