Pocket knives go down hill starting in the 80s?

messer454

messer454

Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
2,122
I have been looking at this section more and more recently. I seem to be getting nastalgic for things of my youth....carbon steel pocket knives and blue and walnut rimfire rifles. Anyway I ran into an older gentlemen today at the grocery who use to have a booth at our local Flea market. This fellow was a lover of old pocket knives and Marbles hunters and he always had some from his collection or recently acquired from auction for sale. I got several old BSA knives for my collection and much knowledge from his as well. I told him today that I missed being able to stop in and see him as I am slowly turning away from the modern and back to older time stuff. I spoke of the Schrade and Camillus knives I used to use and some I still had and then he dropped a bomb on me. He stated that pocket knives really went downhill starting in the 80s. He advised me the only ones worth having to him were the old Remingtons, Cattaragus, and a couple others I can't remember off hand. I asked him what about Case knives because although I never wanted to spend money on them as a kid I always admired them and held them in high reguard. He said that in the 80s the steel was changed somehow and it did not hold an edge nearly as long as the ones from the 60s and 70s.

Now I grew up in the 80s and heard all the stuff about stainless not holding an edge but these opinions are new to me concerning carbon pocket knives. I am not trying to start any arguments as I don't have any knives from earlier that the 80s that I have used so I don't have an opinion. Do any of you from that period agree with this gentlemen? Did the steel somehow drastically change? If so do any of you cutlery historians know why? I would appreciate your thoughts and knowledge.

Edit: Perhaps I didn't clarify fully. We were talking specifically about multiblade pocket knives like trappers, whittlers, stockmans, etc. NOT say folding hunters like Buck 110. I think there might be a difference when people talk about..."lots of knives still available," maybe not.
 
Not gonna touch this one...... ;)
...except to say that there are many companies making knives that are just as good as the tools from the "old days."
Some companies slipped (Case comes to mind, although they've redeemed themselves over the past couple years), but good knives are certainly available.


(Sorry if that sounded snarky, it certainly wasn't intended to be. :thumbup: )
 
I'll be curious to hear some of the answers from some of our members who have extensive collections of older knives and some experience with them.

Many variables can be at play here. Steel, heat treat etc.

I do know one thing, the edges on some of my older knives (1930's vintage) are some of the best in my collection.
 
it might just be nostalgia or senility but it does seem like the case knives i bought in the 70's had better fit and finish and seemed to hold an edge longer. That being said i've recently come back to case and can truthfully say i'm very happy with the overall quality and price. as i get older it seems like everything was better in the "old days"
series 70 colt .45's
smith and wesson model 10's with pinned barrels
my camillus scout knive
my first 110 with the squared off edges.
winchester model 94 with a walnut stock and no dang crossbolt safety.
i could go on but the orderlies are coming with the restraints so i guess i'll sign off now.
 
puukkoman said:
there are many companies making knives that are just as good as the tools from the "old days."
Some companies slipped (Case comes to mind, although they've redeemed themselves over the past couple years), but good knives are certainly available.
Click to expand...

So do I understand you to say that the Cases of today are as good as the Cases of the 60s? I wasn't trying to say there were no good knives available. But are the "traditional" ones as good? I edited my original post to state that the gentleman in question and I were were talking about multi blade pocket knives like trappers and stockmans etc. Maybe that changes someone's view...maybe not.
 
I've noted a couple of times here that the old carbon steel Case knives from the sixties and earlier feel different on a sharpening stone than the new CV. For me they hold their edge better as well. I've never gotten an answer as to what changed; steel, heat-treatment, or both. I don't expect I ever will.
 
the reason is because of the people working on the factory floor manufacturing these items. Manfucturing in america is now done by day labor hires who are at the bottom of the social ladder. The have no loyalty to the company and reputation means nothing because to everybody else they are seen as pariahs/immigrants/wetbacks　or middle class people who have hit bottom and failed at better full time jobs. But the buck stops with companies that structure the jobs this way to be more competitive with other companies and to increase take home profit at the top.
 
Shipwreck, I'm not so sure that you've accurately described the labor force at Case, Queen and other U.S. based knife companies.

That said, let's tread lightly on the socio-economic and political theory here and try to concentrate (in this sub-forum at least) on the actual facts regrading steel, heat treat and other factors which may influence the quality of the knives.
 
I am only slightly narrow minded being a Buck collector, I have a couple of other knives I keep around and use.
The new American made Buck 300 series slipjoints are as well made as the older ones are, maybe even stronger constructed. I carry 70's Buck slipjoints because that is just me, it is my "thing" as we use to say. I run on to good deals (usually slightly used) on 90's and even more recent models. The China Bucks I give to kids as a starter knife. Quality is fine enough for that arena. For my relatives or friends kids,as they grow and turn out to be worth a darn, they will eventually get a American made replacement. I handle my area of interest all the time and I constantly compare companies and makers and listen here to all you guys. Sorry, but the quality and materials of top makers today that I mess with will equal or beat lots of those old timers. I value my family hand-me-down carbon bladed knives. But if I were going with Survivor Man into the middle of no where, give me a modern materials, American made, custom or company, quality slippy.......300Bucks

P.S. And a small axe.
 
As far as I know the steel used by both Case and Schrade has not changed. I believe that the CV is still the same melt formula and the carbon steel used in the Old Timers was the old standby 1095. I think untill the last couple years in operation the Old Timers were just as good a cutting tool as they has been. 1095 is still 1095, no matter if the steel was made in 1960 or 1990. In fact, a bit of a case could be made that the 1990 Old Timers were heat treated a bit better as Schrade had bought new tempering ovens in the late 1970's. The new ovens had digital readouts and more accurite control over the tempratures. I think that the edge holding was still as good as it ever was, but I do agree that the quality of fit and finish is not what it used to be. It is fact that as time went on, Case made more models in stainless steel than CV, and the gentleman may have been reffering to the newer True Sharp in comparision to the old CV. But I don't think you will find a noticable difference between a 1960 Case in CV, and a 1990's Case in CV. I have not noticed any difference in cutting performance in the old Case and new Case CV's. There is no rocket science or secrets in the manufacture and heat treat of the blades. The steel is prossesed by a formula per the steel type. X type of steel needs Y amount of time at Z temprature. The big factories like Case, Schrade, Camillus, had been doing this for a long enough time they knew what had to be done.

Now in fit and finish, I will agree things have went downhill. Not just with Case, but in other brands of knives and guns as well. The new Smith and Wesson revolvers don't begin to compare with the old guns of the 1950's. My couple year old 617 model of the K22 is a rough finished gun next to the old K22 that Karens dad gave her for a high school graduation gift in 1962. But on the range they both shoot better than we do, even from a sandbag. The 617 holds it own even with the shorter 4 inch barrel. But the old K22 is a thing of beauty, with impecable metal work, and a deep gloss blue that you can stare down into. And the 1950's Case stockman I have is finished so much better. There is a more rounded radius on edges and corners, polish of internal areas like springs and liners. A different feel, slight, but its there. With the old guns and pocket knives, you can feel where more time had been spent in the final fitting and polish of the parts.

Sometimes the memory is better than the reality. But the precision of modern computer controlled machines make the parts to a uniformity unmatched by the old days. Its only the final handwork that is lacking. CNC machines don't have the Monday morning blahs, or Friday afternoon attitude that some guy cranking on a mill or pulling on a lathe handle may have. In some cases I think the modern knives may actually be a better tool. In the 1980's and 90's Buck redesigned the 300 series pocket knives for added strengh. They moved the position of some blades, and even earlier had went to a stainless steel pivot pin and bolsters for added duribility. They redeigned the edge for better cutting, and Paul Bos oversees the heat treat. The 2000 era 301 stockman is a better knife than the 1967 era 301 stockman I carried for many years.

It can be a bit of a yes and no thing. Like I said, sometimes the memories are better than what they really were.
 
messer454 said:
I have been looking at this section more and more recently. I seem to be getting nastalgic for things of my youth....carbon steel pocket knives and blue and walnut rimfire rifles. Anyway I ran into an older gentlemen today at the grocery who use to have a booth at our local Flea market. This fellow was a lover of old pocket knives and Marbles hunters and he always had some from his collection or recently acquired from auction for sale. I got several old BSA knives for my collection and much knowledge from his as well. I told him today that I missed being able to stop in and see him as I am slowly turning away from the modern and back to older time stuff. I spoke of the Schrade and Camillus knives I used to use and some I still had and then he dropped a bomb on me. He stated that pocket knives really went downhill starting in the 80s. He advised me the only ones worth having to him were the old Remingtons, Cattaragus, and a couple others I can't remember off hand. I asked him what about Case knives because although I never wanted to spend money on them as a kid I always admired them and held them in high reguard. He said that in the 80s the steel was changed somehow and it did not hold an edge nearly as long as the ones from the 60s and 70s.

Now I grew up in the 80s and heard all the stuff about stainless not holding an edge but these opinions are new to me concerning carbon pocket knives. I am not trying to start any arguments as I don't have any knives from earlier that the 80s that I have used so I don't have an opinion. Do any of you from that period agree with this gentlemen? Did the steel somehow drastically change? If so do any of you cutlery historians know why? I would appreciate your thoughts and knowledge.

Edit: Perhaps I didn't clarify fully. We were talking specifically about multiblade pocket knives like trappers, whittlers, stockmans, etc. NOT say folding hunters like Buck 110. I think there might be a difference when people talk about..."lots of knives still available," maybe not.
Click to expand...


I think you have heard one mans opinion. Most poeple have them just some or worth more than others. Larry
 
jacknife-thank you for the wonderful explanation. That is exactly what I was looking for.

300bucks-glad to hear the Buck slippies are just as good as they used to be. I have never had one (bunch of 110s and Scoutlight though) I will have to try them. Great idea about China made Bucks to kids. I had turned up my nose at them but if you say they are good starter knife I know some Cub Scouts who can benefit.

LarryM-I agree, I was looking for some other informed opinios.

Thanks to all, if anyone has any other info please keep it coming.
 
jackknife said:
Like I said, sometimes the memories are better than what they really were.
Click to expand...
I agree!

I realize this is about knives, but I still hear people making comments like "They don't make cars like they used to". I'm so happy they don't make cars like they used to. My modern cars (Honda and Toyota) have all run for years and hundreds of thousand of miles with only scheduled maintenance that I easily do myself. My parents had "good old days" cars like '65 and '55 Chevys and a '76 Ford F150 and they were constantly broken on the side of the road. "Good old days" outboard motors were cranky and unreliable. Most modern outboard 2-stroke and 4-stroke boat motors are waaaaay more reliable. My '04 Honda 150 outboard hasn't had one problem so far over hundreds of saltwater hours. People make the same kind of comments about the "Greatest Generation." I didn't live through the great depression or fight in a world war (39 years old). I'm a faithfully married (15 years), employed, tax paying, man. I provided 70% of my daughters care after my wife's maternity leave and I'm very involved with her school and daily life, etc. More than I can say for many grandfathers and fathers I've known over the years.

I'll agree that slipjoint knife quality has gone up and down over the years. Case fit and finish is better than a decade ago and probably on par with much earlier production. I'm sure there are old timers that look at the 60's Case Knives as inferior to the stuff they purchased back in the 40's.

Things almost always seemed better than they really were back in the "good old days." I'm sure I'll think my 2008 Case knife just feels better, sharper, tighter than my 2028 Case regardless of the reality.
 
Agree with much of jackknife and augustus' assessment but then again, oftentimes when you look at some of the older workmanship, you can't help but admire the amount of handwork, precision and care that went into the work. (Not everything, mind you, but many things.) The kind of stuff that makes you wonder how much it would cost to have something like that done today (if you could even find someone capable or willing to do so).

It is, on the other hand, heartening to hear that all hope is not lost for the products we purchase today.
 
The market is quite different than it was 30 years ago. The market trend leans more to “tactical” knives with high tech Steels and maximum edge retention. So the “Old” style knives like slip joints tend to fall by the way side as companies redirect there resources to tap in the ever changing market in an attempt to keep there head above water.

I jumped on the high tech wagon for awhile, but now I’m back to carrying slip joints and older style knives. I think the higher end ones are as good as what was available to grand dad.

I carried a carbon steel case Texas jack as a boy. I still have it and still carry it once in awhile. My main carry is a Queen stockman with D2 blades. It’s a nice knife and holds an edge as well as my old case.

Edge retention isn't all that it's made out to be at least to me. I grew up in a time when unless you went custom your choices were pretty much limited to 10 series carbon steels or “Imperial Stainless Steel”. No one complained about edge retention because everyone had an oil stone and a steel in the shop in addition every outdoor store had oil and stone on the counter. Our knives were not always shaving sharp but they always seem to cut and whittle just fine.


A knife doesn’t have to have the latest high tech super-duper steel all it really needs is to be built well and work well. While it’s not as pocket worn, My queen cuts, works and feels as good as my old case and yes when it gets dull I sharpen it just like I had to do with my old case.
 
To some extent I think both quality and selection declined over the 20th century. Look at a specific company (almost any company) and you'll see ups and downs in quality, and quality control. This is going to happen in any market where the consumers will tolerate it. Demand for lower prices is most easily met by reducing the quality of the product, reducing quality control, or reducing selection.

At the same time there have been improvements in some areas, so its hard to say when the decline began. I think it all sort of slacked off in the post-WWII era, and people date the drop in quality from when they noticed it. I suspect this is going to occur a lot more often with the demise of Schrade and Camillus; as people are forced to try new makers, and other makers try to ramp up or outsource production, quality problems are going to be more noticeable.
 
Blues said:
Agree with much of jackknife and augustus' assessment but then again, oftentimes when you look at some of the older workmanship, you can't help but admire the amount of handwork, precision and care that went into the work. (Not everything, mind you, but many things.) The kind of stuff that makes you wonder how much it would cost to have something like that done today (if you could even find someone capable or willing to do so).

It is, on the other hand, heartening to hear that all hope is not lost for the products we purchase today.
Click to expand...

I think that if they tried to make a product like the old days with all the handwork, a 600 dollar Smith and Wesson would be a 2000 dollar custom. On those old guns, somebody spent a long time making sure every little nick and tool mark was polished out before it went to the blue tank. The walnut was picked over so the grain would match from side to sideon the grips. And on the old 4 screw models the side plate was fitted so you could hardly feel the seam with a fingernail. All that equats to lots of paid man hours on the final bill. They just can't afford to do that anymore. D--m shame.

But to the knife companys credit, I think they get it pretty darn close, in todays tight cut throat buisness atmosphere. The new Case knives I've had in the past 5 to 10 years have had exellent finish for the most part. My little bone stag peanut is beautifull, and my grandson treasures it. But the one thing about Case that amazed me and made me a staunch defender of the faith, was the workmenship that was displayed when I sent them my dad's old peanut from the late 30's to repair and overhual.

I don't know who the workmen was at Case that did the repair, but somehow he perfectly matched the light brown faded color of the near side scale. Maybe they diluted the dye or what, but the shade of brown perfectly matched the original scale that was cracked. To top it off, they somehow polished the jigging so it was as smoothed out as the near side jigging so it did not look like a crisp new scale on one side. I think a Case collector would be hard put to see the off side scale had been replaced. And the new main blade was done so well, that after I carried the knife for a while and it got a grey patina, it looked original. The only difference is that it does not have the old style Case XX stamp, but the modern one. Somebody up in Bradford did some really good work.

Increased handwork is money out of profit. With competition from foriegn sources they just can't afford to do that anymore in a general market. For a nitch market it may float. I notice now Smith and Wesson has a line of classic revolvers made the old way. Deep polished blue, case hardened frames. I looked at one down at the gun shop and it was flat out gorgious. It was also 1500 dollars for a .38 revolver. Not many what to spend that kind of money on a revolver. jeez, it was nice though!
 
Jackknife got it right with the labor cost issue. I have a fairly large collection of antique slipjoints, and as far as blade grinds go, those oldies beat most current production hands down. But that was when labor was cheap, and you could still remain competitive in the market while investing a lot of labor in production. Today, with global labor cost differences, companies in the US can't compete with the labor costs of the knives coming from places like China. Something has to give, and frequently it is that last little bit of shaping, polishing, and fitting. To get the really high quality you have to pay for it, because it takes a lot more skilled labor to make it. If you compare a standard Case knife today to an equivalent model 100 years ago, you will find that today's knife will cost a lot less relative to typical wages. They are more affordable for the average Joe.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the earlier knives, (by that I mean 20s-50s) mostly dropped forged, where as beginning after the 50s more steel mills were sellin' rolled steel where the manufacturers only had to have them die cut and finished on a belt grinder for the bevels.

The physics of drop forgin' would allow for more compacted thinner edges where rolled steel ground to shape, (bevels) would depend more on a proper heat treat in regards to edge holdin' ability.

I have quite a few older knives that were made in Germany, or early Western Euorpean manufactured knives that have forged blades, even my Case small Coke Bottle Damascus takes an easy edge to razor sharp and holds it three to five times longer.

I find myself gettin' ready to touch up the edge on an older forged blade and it seems to never need it, compared to some of my more current "Super Steel" knives.

I can't say when the steels changed 60's with more modern steel makin' methods or the 80s when greed was the thing runnin' most corporations and if ya wanted to compete ya had to make concessions somewhere.

There now that I've used up my quota of intelligent comments I'll go back to my normal hick self and remind ya'll one more time to get in on any of the giveaways on the traditional forums one of them ends in about 30 minutes still plenty of time to get in on a free Boker Canoe Model 200, (selfless plug for contest)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top