Pocket saw from Tashiro Hardware

C

Cliff Stamp

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Thanks to Gregory Malinski (RokJok), I have some high quality Japanese saws to work with. I have been doing some cutting with them for the last while on various woods, both on freshly cut and well seasoned felled wood and all manner of scrap lumber from solid pine to particle boards. The saws work well and I have no complaints. I'll post up some comments later on on cutting rates and various aspects of usage. This post however is just on one particular aspect which is the folding saw, and specifically the ability to set the angle of the blade. Here is the saw :

http://www.tashirohardware.com/pocketbh.jpg

When Greg commented on the forum that you could angle the blade down to keep the cutting ability high when the blade was dull I was a bit skeptical and well to be frank, not overly impressed anyway with that aspect as logically why not just use a sharp blade and replace the worn one. Yes, for long term "survival" ok, but it takes a tremendous amount of cutting to wear down the impulse hardened teeth on Japanese saws, so for any normal use I saw no real advantage even if it was a real significant effect.

I had been using the saws for quite some time and had forgot to check the aggression as a function of angle. I only got around to it when some of the cutting rates went a bit skewed from what I expected them to be. I was comparing blades on two different handles and one was straight and the the other dropped. It was a very significant effect as it was allowing a 14.5 tpi saw to out cut a 11 tpi saw.

I took the folding saw which I had been using straight and started dropping the blade, as it locks in small degree implements from above to below straight. I didn't have to make any note of the amount of cuts as the aggression difference was huge. It is quite impressive as you can set the level of aggression that you want by dialing in the angle of the drop.

With the blade dropped down 4 notches I can take the 18 tpi compass blade and quickly and smoothly cut through 2x4's, rip through 12" sections of plywood . I can then set the blade right up straight, dropping the aggression down and smoothly saw through thick ropes as well as very light and springy boards. Basically the firmer the stock is held in place the lower you can drop the blade and the faster you can cut. For felling wood, where the tree is basically fixed in place, or for limbing, you can go very fast indeed.

It quite a nice product and I would definitely recommend it over the Felco pruner (which is a quality saw in its own right) because of the versatility in setting the angle of the blade. Besides controlling the aggression, it also allows you to saw in many places were you can't do a full normal stroke , overhead for example or in cramped quarters. I would however like to see a really coarse rough blade for the folding saw, say ~5 tpi.

I look forward to a lot more sawing with these blades. I have about a cord of small wood (2-4") that has to be bucked up this week. The large timber saw breezes through that wood, I have cut even 8" spruce with it, no problems. The main large handle is very ergonomic, secure with a nice aggressive drop. You can see all the blades and handles here :

http://www.tashirohardware.com/

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

Glad those Zeta saws are working out okay for you. Has any of the wood worked with contained ice? I suspect ice would dull even the very hard Japanese saw teeth pretty quickly. But again, maybe not. The ice harvesters used big saws for cutting ice blocks out of lakes during the early 1900's when iceboxes (with real ice as the coolant) were the refrigeration du jour.

IIRC each detent of the Zeta folding saw equals 10 degrees. So if you reduced the angle between the blade and handle by 4 notches that was a 40 degree change, which is pretty large. I'm not surprised that it yielded a large change in tooth aggression and cutting performance. On his website Mr Tashiro calls this aggression the "couple" of the blade.

Buying replacement blades is the after-sale expense of these saws. However, they dull slowly enough that they don't need replacing very often. If you apply them commercially, where any blade will wear out a lot faster, the cost may become a factor. The teeth are harder than a file, which is why you simply replace the blades (at a nominal price) when they dull too much, instead of resharpening them.

But as Cliff notes, as the teeth get duller, simply reducing the angle between the blade and handle can drastically raise the aggression with which the teeth dig into wood. Reducing this angle allows you to use a blade after its useful life in a strictly straight handle (traditional ryoba type handle) would be over. If you reduce the angle too much, you reach a point where the teeth dig in so effectively you can't stroke the blade through the wood at all.

The semi-pistol grip of Mr Tashiro's hacksaw handle (which will hold the wood cutting blades as well) is even lighter weight than the folding handle, which shaves a few ounces off your total pack weight. But the folding handle offers the variable angle capability for extending the life of each blade & covers the sharp teeth when closed, so I think carrying its extra weight is compensated by its added ability.

Yours in folding toothy tools,
Greg
 
I would think that these harder-than-a-file sawblades would be of interest to some of our knifemaking compatriots when the blades wear out. At worst, the old blades should strike a good spark.
 
Thanks for the review, Cliff. I started a thread on folding saws a while back, and someone, I think it was Rokjok, suggested the Zeta. Hopefully I'll have the chance to buy one the next time I come to the States.
 
Cliff this sounds like a nice tool for your large wood cutting needs at a small cost in weight.

Assuming that you have a small knife for cutting (say 3 to 4") and this saw whould coupling it with a small kuk (say a 12" ang kola) or the GB mini-hatchet give you any advantage?

I pick these two because they are about equal in weight and overall size.

Which (if either) would you prefer?

Ben
 
Texascarl, just a quick clarification on the hardness of the blades. It is only the teeth tips that are induction hardened to be so incredibly hard. The rest of the blade is considerably softer and would need the normal heat treating to make it into a knife with much edge retention.

However, some woodworkers will grind the teeth off their dull blades and burnish the ground edge to use as a cabinet scraper. So I suspect your idea for using it as a sparking scraper is on the money.

(edited later to add) Will take this thread off-subject for a bit. I just tested my Firesteel (thanks Piet!! :))with both the spine edge and toothed edge of Zeta Folding Saw blade and their hacksaw blade, plus a Busse Assault Shaker (a 1/4" thick blade with fairly thick edge) and SAK (1/16" thick blade with very thin edge). Both the knives worked well, with the edge going to the SAK's thin edge concentrating the applied force more and throwing what looked like bigger sparks.

The folding saw blade spine threw some sparks - about as many as the scraper that came with the Firesteel from Bagheera. The toothed edge threw LOTS more sparks which looked really big. Not surprisingly, the teeth chewed up the Firesteel much worse than did the spine of the blade or the scraper.

The spine of the hacksaw blade (blade is hard all the way through and quite brittle) would hardly throw sparks at all, even with heavy downward pressure applied. But that blade has a paint-like coating that is barely soft enough to scrape off with my thumbnail, which I believe prevented consistent steel/rod contact. So I used a random orbit sander to remove the coating off the spine & sides of the blade and tried it again. Better results without the coating, but still pretty anemic - certainly less than acceptable. I suspect the sanding left the corners at the spine/sides junctions less than sharp.

The toothed side of the hacksaw blade throws even more sparks than the folding saw blade, but they were smaller compared to the folding saw blade sparks. The hacksaw blade teeth did less damage to the Firesteel than the much coarser (less tpi) teeth of the folding saw teeth. This is to be expected. The higher tpi of the hacksaw blade means there are more teeth in contact with the Firesteel at any instant. This would throw more sparks (more mini-strikers in action) and distribute the applied force to more points of contact, so each point digs into the Firesteel with less pressure.
 
RokJok, the best strikers I've found for ferro rods are a regular hacksaw blade, either the tooth or the smooth side, the file from a multi-tool (chews up the rod, but throws HUGE sparks), and the very start of the edge of my 12 inch Ontario machete.

On the machete, I used the portion of the blade that's about 1.5 inches from the handle, just where the edge starts, but it's not really sharp. It throws really good sparks, is controlable, and doesn't damage the edge.

Also, I have one of the "U.S." marked pocket knives, the all-stainless 4 bladed issue knives, and the awl on that strikes incredible sparks as well.

I prefer to not use the edge of my knives to throw sparks, as it seems to really chew them up and dull them. I have also experimented with the spines of some of my knives. If you scrape some of the epoxy coating off of the BK&T Campanion, right in back of the tip, you can get some great sparks from that as well.
 
Ben, a decent chopping tool, either small pack axe or blade is a simply excellent addition to a small folding saw and light blade. First and foremost is limbing out the felled wood, both to aid in fire burning as well as for material for your shelter, bedding, or even clothes (padding for multi layers) and equipment (snow shoes, signaling). You can do the limbing with either the smaller knife or the saw, but both are readily outperformed many times to one by even a 7" class decent knife. The CU/7 isn't a powerful chopper by any standard, but even it would be very appreciated for gathering pine limbs.

Beyond that task, there are also many others which go much faster with a knife of even decent chopping ability ( say 1/4 that of the GB Wildlife Hatchet). It allows you to point stakes for example much easier than either the saw or smaller blade. There is no repeated slicing, just a quick few hacks to make a rough point. Same thing goes for splitting. Generally around here, because the wood is so ingrown, there are tremendous amount of dead wood easily available (you can beat it off the trees with a stick). So I would not have to split any amount of wood to start a fire, nor keep it going. However in a more open area, it becomes a problem, and sawing though a piece of wood (ripping it) isn't fun at all.

Moving beyond the chopping/splitting wood craft ability there are also a multitude of uses for a heavier chopping blade. First and most obvious is that it makes a decent hammer, pounding in stakes, breaking open bones, shaping metal etc. . If the climate is cold, then ice cutting is of major importance. This is very difficult with a saw, near impossible, and very time consuming with a small blade, as you are basically using a small ice pick. The GB pack hatchet would vastly reduce the energy you need to perform such a task, even on just a foot of ice, which doesn't take much time to form.

As to those specific blades, I have not used either, but based on experience with other similar tools, I would pick the GB mini-hatchet. I like the Ang Khola's but mainly as versatile brush clearing tools, so I want a minimum of 18" .

I would second the comments about the folding saw handle. While the ergonomics are far inferior to the hacksaw handle, it is much more portable. I use the hacksaw handle around the house, but take the folding saw with me. You can of course buy or make a scabbard for the other one. The versatility of the angle to blade drop also can't be understated. Regarding the 40 degree drop, I only find that practical felling soft woods, however 30 degrees is workable on even hardwoods held in place by hand pressure (shoulder lean). And yes, some of the wood had a half to a full inch of ice on it, in some sections, normally you would just beat this off as well as remove the bark if you wanted to conserve the lifetime of the saw. You also work slowly as excessive speed also increases the dulling rate

Speaking of Japanese saws, Lee Valley is now selling models with bi-HSS blades. I can't imagine wearing them out on wood, unless you are cutting mainly particle board. Unfortunately, right now, they are only offering 14 tpi models. While these are actually enough for wood working, I have cut even fresh pine with the 14.5 joint blade, I would vastly prefer at least a 9 tpi blade. The edge aggression is one thing, but the greater kerf is a major factor as it allows a much more sloppy cut to be functional, for wilderness work you want all the give you can get. The gullets are also much easier to clean on the coarser saws.

-Cliff
 
As an update, I have been using this saw to cut down small saplings as of late that are too small for an axe to be functional. The last time I had it out I actually forgot about it and left it in the woods. It was there for 5 days, and during that time we had 15 cm of snow, rain and sleet. When I went back and found it, there was some small discoloration on the blade and that is all. I used some cleaner and a worn scotchbrite pad and it looks as good as new. No visible damage to the teeth and they don't seem any less aggressive (few test cuts). No problems with the action either. After cleaning it was oiled again and you could not tell it was ever left outside.

-Cliff
 
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