Point versus Edge

Jerry Hossom

Jerry Hossom

Joined
Aug 1, 1999
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Again, this seems to be a point of contention among the people I know who have been there. Some want their blades to be a good slasher; some prefer to use the point in an attack. From the discussions, the slashers seem to make the best case, arguing they prefer to inflict massive trauma that will always get the job done in under a minute as opposed to a stab that may or may not hit the vital spot. I try to make my knives capable of both, but obviously compromises are not always the best approach. Opinions?
 
I think that hindering one aspect in favor of another is short sighted for a civilians use. As civilians we do not know what sort of situation we will find ourselves in. A soldier attacking another without warning is different. In that case, give him what he feels most confortable using offensively. Let him hack with a machete/short sword or let him stab with an icepick. However self-defense is about responding to veriables that may favor either stabbing or attacking. A SD blade should be able to do both. It probably will not slash as well as a skinning knife or stab as well as a spike, but the sum of things it can do will be greater and, I believe, more beneficial. The alternative is to carry two blades. Relatively easy to do if you are talking folders but harder and much more conspicuous if you are talking fixed blades
 
I agree completely on civilian blades, though some martial arts training prefer one or the other. I was really addressing this more to the combat role. Sorry I wasn't more clear on that.
 
My humble opinion, the blade must be versatile. Slashing, for Myself, is a defensive stroke. Stabbing will more effectively reach vital organs and arteries. Consider this, clothing and body armor can defeat a slash at least partially. The point can puncture lungs, heart or short out the CNS much more rapidly.
 
Just use a Tomahawk and you get both in one swing!!!! :D

Seriously though, just to add to the discussion here, Peter LaGana was ALL about the "continuous" slashing Tomahawk motion on Filipino #3 and #4 angles in combat. (Horizontal planes)

He devastated many a man-sized wooden target that way during his extensive demonstrations to Armed Services Personnel when attempting to replace the Bayonet.

What is interesting about this issue though is that the cutting edge of a Hawk during that motion is pitched almost like a stab-technique on a knife...just with a LOT more energy behind it due to the length of the instrument...a LARGE fixed-blade works very much the same when used this way...almost like an elliptical stab.
 
Think of a slash as a precursor or setup for the final thrust. Another way to look at a knife thrust is this :
Think of the typ of wound channels created by a bullet. Now take that bullet, slowing it down considerably, and enlarge it to the width of your blade. Now with said blade inserted, shift/tug/twirl/twist/etc. What do you think that wound channel looks like now?:D
 
Cut vs. thrust has been with us from the beginning of edged weapons. Different weapon forms and use abound. Rapier vs. Oakshott Type X sword or dagger vs. meat clever. Both methods can be effective and both have their fans. Personally, I prefer a blade that can both cut and thrust.
 
If you really think about it, if a slash is blocked and you see you can move in for a stab, end of the fight.
If, on the other hand, someone avoids you thrusting one of your sharp, pointy "things", you could pull it back and move to slash them.
 
Jerry,

I trust the following will be helpful to you.

The great Japanese swordsman, Mushasi, wrote in his classic book of The Five Rings that one should not have a favored weapon. He offered the complete swordsman, or warrior, should understand as many weapons as possible and be able to skillfully employ them in battle, and apply their unique attributes to the situation at hand.

Slashing and Penetrating are both movements and actions. They are not "points", per se.

The educated / skilled knife user will employ both slashing and penetrating attacks / defenses in the course of a confrontation. At times, either a single lethal slash or penetration (stab) will suffice to end the confrontation. Example: Number 3 thrust direct to the heart. Or, Number 2 slash across the exposed throat. Clearly either must be executed with speed, power, and targeting accuracy to be deadline effective as a single stroke killing blow. That's where intellecual knowledge and physical training meld into one and become Right Movement.

A combat or fighting knife's point should be geometrically specifically designed and crafted by the maker to be durable, easily honed, and meant to assist in either an effective slash or penetration. Yes, some such designs are better in terms of form to facilitate a thrust. Yes, some such designs are better to facilitate a slash.

So here is perhaps the key to answering this particular question.

The knife user, if he or she does favor one over the other will look to the maker's selection of knives that offers a point design inclined toward slashing, penetrating, or the best of both worlds. Let the end user drive the selection of the instrument, and offer a selection predicated on the above (which you already do and are simply seeking to improve) + superior craftsmanship where point construction and geometry are the primary considerations.
 
In my personal knife trianing I tend to emphasize point over edge attacks. Thrusts are more damaging and obviate many of the common obstacles encountered by the slash - such as clothing, and getting depth (especially with short blades) of slash into a moving target - (try slashing something that is immediately recoiling from the blade.)

Its good to train both and have a weapon optimally designed for both - this question would extend to single vs double-edged blades - more bang for the buck.

I know here in florida most of the street scum wear heavy clothes and even leather jackets in the middle of summer with 90+ degree 100% humidity, trying to be 'cool looking' or edp.

(I only concern myself with likely civilian weapon use.)
 
Ah, good. I was going to reference Mick Striders thread from the Srider forum. I see that he has beaten me to it. The way I like to look at it is both can do the job, depending on where the attack lands. I find myself going for the thrust when a killing blow is wanted.
As Mick says in his thread, the most effective way to end a fight is to attack the central nervous system. Few knives have the capability to sever the spine or penetrate the skull with a cut. However, even a cheap balisong can sever the spinal cord with a well placed thrust. I havent done it, heard it on the news a while back (~2 years). There are lethal/incapacitating targets for both slashes and thrusts, but, with the above exceptions, the ones that come to mind for slashing are slower than the ones for thrusting. I found out last night that thrusts are surprisingly instinctive for me at least. While doing some knife training, I found that slashes tended to be disarming type cuts to the forearms/hands, while the thrust was the finisher.
And now for a little tale. I was talking w/ a fellow who claimed to be a former combat medic for a SF team. He was in his late 40's to early 50's. He said that he had quit/been discharged after being attacked by a guy wielding a kuhkri(sp). It was a surprise attack that had nearly taken off his leg. Do I believe the story? Sure, I dont have any reason not to. Do I think this is a fight stopping blow, absolutely. Is this a blow that can be achieved w/ 90% of the knives carried, no. Conclusion: unless the knife in question can sever a limb, or reach the CNS with one blow, try to stick to thrusting. Cuts happen, and people react before they can think, but for most of the knives carried by the populace, the thrust is the most efficient way to go, if your objective is to kill/incapacitate. If the objective is to get home safe, slash or thrust or whatever and get away. More training should be dedicated to wind sprints, while keeping in mind that you can be cornered.
Disclaimer: I have only been training for less than a year, so feel free to throw this out the window.

Thanks Mick, for breaking things down into simple, straight forward concepts.
 
never killed anyone
but
i have stabbed the life out of many hawgs
and
have seen 100 times that many killed
tried lots of blade shapes
i,ve found
wider is better than long
only need to reach to the bottom of a pnut butter jar:)
2 edges r not twice;but 4 times better than one

i make my battle bowie that i take hunters out with a little longer than needed, we r killing hawgs not people
i,ve severed the shank from the hock on a thrust w one

theres no such thing as a tactical knife
either killn knives or camp knifes
harley
www.lonesomepineknives.com
 
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