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"Pointy parts toward enemy..."
- Thread starter krept
- Start date
I dont know what thread that comment came from, but I believe this would be the "more" part. Could be wrong, but this has alot to do with pointy end out!
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=191876
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=191876
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2000
- Messages
- 1,385
Thanks 1911.
If your still interested, let me know.
Mick
RLTW
If your still interested, let me know.
Mick
RLTW
Mick,
Whenever you feel the urge to type something that kick ass again please do so!!!
I just went back are reread most of it. Its a outstanding thread on mindset and tactics. Doesnt make up for hours on the mat, but goes a long way towards making you think.
Thank you,
Kyle Eich
Happy AR owner.
Whenever you feel the urge to type something that kick ass again please do so!!!
I just went back are reread most of it. Its a outstanding thread on mindset and tactics. Doesnt make up for hours on the mat, but goes a long way towards making you think.
Thank you,
Kyle Eich
Happy AR owner.
That is a great thread, thanks for the reference.
Here is the thread where this comment came from...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183572
The "pointy parts towards enemy" seems like a great all inclusive philosophy... almost like the beloved message on the front of the M-18A2. Seems like it has more applications towards combat in general as opposed to dedicated icepick style fighting... (more on other thread about that) hence my question.
Here is the thread where this comment came from...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183572
The "pointy parts towards enemy" seems like a great all inclusive philosophy... almost like the beloved message on the front of the M-18A2. Seems like it has more applications towards combat in general as opposed to dedicated icepick style fighting... (more on other thread about that) hence my question.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 1999
- Messages
- 3,831
krept,
Allow me to elaborate a bit more, since I was the guy who asked the question in that thread!
I have a bit of knife training under my belt. For the longest time, I thought the edge should be out while doing reverse grip, as then you can slash easily as well as stab. But then I got to reading/thingking. I figured that reverse grip isn't really a slashing type grip, and it really lends itself to the stab. With the edge in, as you stab your natural body movements/arm motions will cur the bastid as the knife is pulled/drawn through and out of the bad guy. I figured that such a stroke is way more powerful than a stab with the edge out, as then you'd be trying to cut with the back of the knife, which ain't cool at all!
Mick said that th epointy parts should be towards the enemy, speaking towards the saftey aspect of things quite a bit. One othe rthing I think you can claw in here is that even if an edge out stab isn't as biomechanically strong/efficient, when knife fighting you had better have turned into the Bad Man! So, a million and three stabs with the edge out as you scream at th ebad guy and crap in his face will stop the bad dude just fine
I don't want to put words into Mick's mouth, but I believe that is what he was getting at. I still like reverse grip edge in with small knives, especially stince many fixed blades are sheathed with the edge in. It is very fast to grab handle, raise arm, stab and pull cut. Longer blades, however, increase your chances of cutting yourself, hence with longer blades it may be better to hold the knife edge out.
I haven't doen enough mat time at all to make a firmer conclusion for myself, but I sure take Mick's words to heart, as they are lessons well earned.
Any further thoughts Mick?
Allow me to elaborate a bit more, since I was the guy who asked the question in that thread!
I have a bit of knife training under my belt. For the longest time, I thought the edge should be out while doing reverse grip, as then you can slash easily as well as stab. But then I got to reading/thingking. I figured that reverse grip isn't really a slashing type grip, and it really lends itself to the stab. With the edge in, as you stab your natural body movements/arm motions will cur the bastid as the knife is pulled/drawn through and out of the bad guy. I figured that such a stroke is way more powerful than a stab with the edge out, as then you'd be trying to cut with the back of the knife, which ain't cool at all!
Mick said that th epointy parts should be towards the enemy, speaking towards the saftey aspect of things quite a bit. One othe rthing I think you can claw in here is that even if an edge out stab isn't as biomechanically strong/efficient, when knife fighting you had better have turned into the Bad Man! So, a million and three stabs with the edge out as you scream at th ebad guy and crap in his face will stop the bad dude just fine
I don't want to put words into Mick's mouth, but I believe that is what he was getting at. I still like reverse grip edge in with small knives, especially stince many fixed blades are sheathed with the edge in. It is very fast to grab handle, raise arm, stab and pull cut. Longer blades, however, increase your chances of cutting yourself, hence with longer blades it may be better to hold the knife edge out.
I haven't doen enough mat time at all to make a firmer conclusion for myself, but I sure take Mick's words to heart, as they are lessons well earned.
Any further thoughts Mick?
Very interesting, Crayola...
My g/f and I have been having a bit of a debte (not serious, just a few comments on occasion) about edge our versus edge in...
I've been using Edge Out reverse grip, and was thinking to to be the best (for no real reason, just what I was familiar with, dont like change, etc.), but the other day I was doing some lice blade training (with a cutting target) and did a stab reverse grip, with my EKI folder, and the liner lock (which was really getting too worn to do anything with, without getting it replaced first) sliped, and the knife went into my pinky. The very back of the edge, went in nearly to the bone I think, hurt like a b*tch. I'd hate to have that happen in a fight (and even with a new liner lock, any lock can fail..).. it was totally my fault, but its got me thinking, that wouldnt have happened in edge-in.
And when stabbing in reverse grip, edge in, the cutting edge, is pushing into flesh, as part of the natural movement, potentially making a wider wound (this was said before tho...)
Also, I am noticing (and this could just be because of bad technique) I bark my knuckles on the target easily, when slashing with a shorter blade, and going at full speed... If they hit on a metal zipper, or anything like that, or something hard in a pocket, it would hurt like the dickens... and any injury I can avoid, I'd like to... Edge in... I dont see this happening.
Longer blades... no thoughts, or repeating of thoughts, I dont carry a longer blade currently, 4" is about the max for me, right now... so, when I do practice, I usually focus on the shorter blade lengths I carry most... so nothing solid to base any thoughts on, for now at least.
Anyway, now that I'm done repeating others, I'll sit back and read...
I'm interested in hearing what else others have to say on this...
My g/f and I have been having a bit of a debte (not serious, just a few comments on occasion) about edge our versus edge in...
I've been using Edge Out reverse grip, and was thinking to to be the best (for no real reason, just what I was familiar with, dont like change, etc.), but the other day I was doing some lice blade training (with a cutting target) and did a stab reverse grip, with my EKI folder, and the liner lock (which was really getting too worn to do anything with, without getting it replaced first) sliped, and the knife went into my pinky. The very back of the edge, went in nearly to the bone I think, hurt like a b*tch. I'd hate to have that happen in a fight (and even with a new liner lock, any lock can fail..).. it was totally my fault, but its got me thinking, that wouldnt have happened in edge-in.
And when stabbing in reverse grip, edge in, the cutting edge, is pushing into flesh, as part of the natural movement, potentially making a wider wound (this was said before tho...)
Also, I am noticing (and this could just be because of bad technique) I bark my knuckles on the target easily, when slashing with a shorter blade, and going at full speed... If they hit on a metal zipper, or anything like that, or something hard in a pocket, it would hurt like the dickens... and any injury I can avoid, I'd like to... Edge in... I dont see this happening.
Longer blades... no thoughts, or repeating of thoughts, I dont carry a longer blade currently, 4" is about the max for me, right now... so, when I do practice, I usually focus on the shorter blade lengths I carry most... so nothing solid to base any thoughts on, for now at least.
Anyway, now that I'm done repeating others, I'll sit back and read...
I'm interested in hearing what else others have to say on this...
- Joined
- Sep 23, 1999
- Messages
- 3,831
Awesome thoughts on the notion of locking blades! I had thought of that once upon a time, but unfortunately I had forgotten about it. Thanks satin, you have done a great service by posting your findings!
Indeed, an edge in reverse grip will make many locks more safe, just because you aren't putting "closing force" on the lock. That isn' to say that everythign will be just fine, as any combative movements with a folder puts much stress on the lock, and I don't care what lock you are using!
I am eagerly checking this thread as well for more info...
Indeed, an edge in reverse grip will make many locks more safe, just because you aren't putting "closing force" on the lock. That isn' to say that everythign will be just fine, as any combative movements with a folder puts much stress on the lock, and I don't care what lock you are using!
I am eagerly checking this thread as well for more info...
My problem is I have no mat time with the knife.
For some reason I would try maximize the reach of any knife, even the small ones and use it with a saber grip. I would think that using it in a snapping jab motion would provoke the same instinctual response as an assault icepick style. The arms go to protect the face like Mick said.
Then you still have the option of shooting or staying at distance.
To me it's really not complicated. If they have a bigger blade or projectile maker, I'd want to close the distance as soon as possible and get on the inside or rear mount. Natural. Their weapon is more effective at a longer range.
Shorter blade or no weapon... why charge in? Why not wear them down from the outside... as outside as possible?
I'm being honest in my questions and I'd appreciate any good info. This guy I happened to meet up with at Karate Mart of all places trained in FMA under Inosanto and used icepick grip too and ripped me up, but I was clearly playing role of Uke.
For some reason I would try maximize the reach of any knife, even the small ones and use it with a saber grip. I would think that using it in a snapping jab motion would provoke the same instinctual response as an assault icepick style. The arms go to protect the face like Mick said.
Then you still have the option of shooting or staying at distance.
To me it's really not complicated. If they have a bigger blade or projectile maker, I'd want to close the distance as soon as possible and get on the inside or rear mount. Natural. Their weapon is more effective at a longer range.
Shorter blade or no weapon... why charge in? Why not wear them down from the outside... as outside as possible?
I'm being honest in my questions and I'd appreciate any good info. This guy I happened to meet up with at Karate Mart of all places trained in FMA under Inosanto and used icepick grip too and ripped me up, but I was clearly playing role of Uke.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 1999
- Messages
- 3,831
krept,
You really should try to find soem mat time. Even if 10 guys on here say knife grip xyz is the best, there will be a few that find grip xyz sucks for them.
Keeping guys at a distance is cool, if you have the attributes to do that and are trained in long range techniques. jsut because you hold a knife in a saber grip doesn't mean you have more reach on a guy. If you don't learn how to use that reach, it is moot.
Ice pick grips are powerful. When you are screaming, eyes are bloodshot, and you are snorting so hard the semen from your nuts is pouring out of your nose (i.e. when you have become the Bad Man and you are fighting for your life, or someone else's) an ice pick grip will deliver a devastating amount of trauma.
You really should try to find soem mat time. Even if 10 guys on here say knife grip xyz is the best, there will be a few that find grip xyz sucks for them.
Keeping guys at a distance is cool, if you have the attributes to do that and are trained in long range techniques. jsut because you hold a knife in a saber grip doesn't mean you have more reach on a guy. If you don't learn how to use that reach, it is moot.
Ice pick grips are powerful. When you are screaming, eyes are bloodshot, and you are snorting so hard the semen from your nuts is pouring out of your nose (i.e. when you have become the Bad Man and you are fighting for your life, or someone else's) an ice pick grip will deliver a devastating amount of trauma.
When talking fixed blades, unless its a special carry, most strong side sheaths, the knife is either drawn, and changed in grip, to get a solid saber, or to get edge out, or its drawn straight up, and its edge in reverse grip.
So, edge in becomes part of the equation, when including a factor of immediate need... you need it fast, no time to phck around changing grips, reverse grip edge in is probably going to be fastest I think.
With any knife, if you want it in reverse grip, you've got to flip it around, obviously... Now, flipping it from a saber grip, to a reverse grip, edge out, involves some dexterity, and has to be practiced to do effeciently... It involves tilting the knife up from the hand, placing thumb and middle-finger on each side of it, and spinning it, in the process this reverses the knife, it also turns the handle completely in the hand... this takes a lot of dexterity, and muscle control.
This is also how it would be done with drawing a folding knife, and then turning it into a reverse grip edge out, just have to get it open first.
In a fight, adrenaline pumping, there isnt a lot of that left. If you've trained for 3000 hours, just on this technique, maybe you can get it done without fumbling/slipping.
Now, pour oil, and salt water (blood&sweat) onto the handle and try it... *clatter* oopsie!
Now, turning it into reverse grip edge in, right after the draw... I draw my folder, by pinching the rear of the handle, between my thumb, and my index and middle fingers, and pulling out. Its an Emerson knife, with a Wave, (sorry if thats not cool to mention here, not trying to start a pissing contest, just sharing my thoughts) so its open when it comes out... and with my fingers like they are, already, its a simple move to let gravity carry the knife down into reverse grip... and this puts it with reverse grip edge in... once again.
And I find it easier to do than adjusting my hand into a solid saber grip, faster, and less dexterity needed.
So how I carry, I could draw fast, or once drawn get into a solid grip fast, with it in edge in.
Now, its only a split seconds diff in time... but how much diff is it in muscle movement, and dexteriy needed? A LOT.
I'm not a doctor, and I dont know how many muscles move for each, but just try it, see for yourself which feels like it takes more dexterity, and more muscle use to implement.
Now, saw your right hand was involved (holding a pistol), or hurt, and you had to reach around, and grab your right hand IWB fixed blade, with your left, its going to come out in reverse grip, edge out... again, knowing how to use it like that is important.
There are so many variables, so many...
Neither is better... they each have their attributes, and there is one thats the prefference for us all...
However, its equally important to train, and become good at, using the blade in a variety of grips, edge in, edge out, forward, reverse, saber grip, hammer grip, etc.
What about for the gunners? If forced to draw a knife, because its faster to get at than their concealed hand-gun, or needing the knife to hack at am arm/hand on a person trying to take their gun, they might be forced into grabbing the knife with a bass-ackwards grip... and even if they dont like Edge In, that might be how they get their hands on it... and thus should be familiar with its use. (this really goes for any of us, not just the gun ppl)
Knives for gunners... whats that you say? Guns are more powerful, guns are better right? But... but people should carry knives? DAMN STRAIGHT!!
And carry them in places you can access with either hand, gun hand, or weak hand... So you have a better chance of not having to get it from some bass ackwards position...
As I mentioned before, If someone has ahold of your gun/gun arm, how are you gonna make 'em let go? Well, one way is to cut the sh!t out of the arm holding yours.. with the knife in your weak hand.
Cant get to your gun fast enough? What about the folder or fixed blade?
Or even that ASP baton?
And who knows HOW you'll have to grab that weapon... the only opportunity you may have, might be in a bass ackwards grip to the norm, but if you can still put it to use, thats what counts!
yer trying to survive... not mince around with grip changes, and getting to the best weapon...
The best weapon is the one in your hand,, that you can use!
So even if you despise edge in grip... or any grip, I think its important to have an idea of how to use your weapon in that grip...
Even if Edge In doesnt work good for you... its prolly smart to get familiar with it... just incase... cuz, incase ya hadnt noticed, sh*t happens... and its rarely predictable.
Be a defensive boy scout, be prepared.
As is commonly said around these parts, you're fighting to live... there is no one perfect weapon... and no one worst weapon... no one worst grip... no one perfect grip...
Its dictated by the need at the time. Bass Ackwards, but knowing what to do with it, is definatly the upper hand to nothing at all. Situational Demands are that you live, and to do that, you gotta make the best use of whatever weapon you get your hands on (be the Bad Man with it...)
Sorry if this is a rehashing of things already said... just had a few more thoughts, that i wanted to add, so excuse it if un-original beyond belief material.
So, edge in becomes part of the equation, when including a factor of immediate need... you need it fast, no time to phck around changing grips, reverse grip edge in is probably going to be fastest I think.
With any knife, if you want it in reverse grip, you've got to flip it around, obviously... Now, flipping it from a saber grip, to a reverse grip, edge out, involves some dexterity, and has to be practiced to do effeciently... It involves tilting the knife up from the hand, placing thumb and middle-finger on each side of it, and spinning it, in the process this reverses the knife, it also turns the handle completely in the hand... this takes a lot of dexterity, and muscle control.
This is also how it would be done with drawing a folding knife, and then turning it into a reverse grip edge out, just have to get it open first.
In a fight, adrenaline pumping, there isnt a lot of that left. If you've trained for 3000 hours, just on this technique, maybe you can get it done without fumbling/slipping.
Now, pour oil, and salt water (blood&sweat) onto the handle and try it... *clatter* oopsie!
Now, turning it into reverse grip edge in, right after the draw... I draw my folder, by pinching the rear of the handle, between my thumb, and my index and middle fingers, and pulling out. Its an Emerson knife, with a Wave, (sorry if thats not cool to mention here, not trying to start a pissing contest, just sharing my thoughts) so its open when it comes out... and with my fingers like they are, already, its a simple move to let gravity carry the knife down into reverse grip... and this puts it with reverse grip edge in... once again.
And I find it easier to do than adjusting my hand into a solid saber grip, faster, and less dexterity needed.
So how I carry, I could draw fast, or once drawn get into a solid grip fast, with it in edge in.
Now, its only a split seconds diff in time... but how much diff is it in muscle movement, and dexteriy needed? A LOT.
I'm not a doctor, and I dont know how many muscles move for each, but just try it, see for yourself which feels like it takes more dexterity, and more muscle use to implement.
Now, saw your right hand was involved (holding a pistol), or hurt, and you had to reach around, and grab your right hand IWB fixed blade, with your left, its going to come out in reverse grip, edge out... again, knowing how to use it like that is important.
There are so many variables, so many...
Neither is better... they each have their attributes, and there is one thats the prefference for us all...
However, its equally important to train, and become good at, using the blade in a variety of grips, edge in, edge out, forward, reverse, saber grip, hammer grip, etc.
What about for the gunners? If forced to draw a knife, because its faster to get at than their concealed hand-gun, or needing the knife to hack at am arm/hand on a person trying to take their gun, they might be forced into grabbing the knife with a bass-ackwards grip... and even if they dont like Edge In, that might be how they get their hands on it... and thus should be familiar with its use. (this really goes for any of us, not just the gun ppl)
Knives for gunners... whats that you say? Guns are more powerful, guns are better right? But... but people should carry knives? DAMN STRAIGHT!!
And carry them in places you can access with either hand, gun hand, or weak hand... So you have a better chance of not having to get it from some bass ackwards position...
As I mentioned before, If someone has ahold of your gun/gun arm, how are you gonna make 'em let go? Well, one way is to cut the sh!t out of the arm holding yours.. with the knife in your weak hand.
Cant get to your gun fast enough? What about the folder or fixed blade?
Or even that ASP baton?
And who knows HOW you'll have to grab that weapon... the only opportunity you may have, might be in a bass ackwards grip to the norm, but if you can still put it to use, thats what counts!
yer trying to survive... not mince around with grip changes, and getting to the best weapon...
The best weapon is the one in your hand,, that you can use!
So even if you despise edge in grip... or any grip, I think its important to have an idea of how to use your weapon in that grip...
Even if Edge In doesnt work good for you... its prolly smart to get familiar with it... just incase... cuz, incase ya hadnt noticed, sh*t happens... and its rarely predictable.
Be a defensive boy scout, be prepared.
As is commonly said around these parts, you're fighting to live... there is no one perfect weapon... and no one worst weapon... no one worst grip... no one perfect grip...
Its dictated by the need at the time. Bass Ackwards, but knowing what to do with it, is definatly the upper hand to nothing at all. Situational Demands are that you live, and to do that, you gotta make the best use of whatever weapon you get your hands on (be the Bad Man with it...)
Sorry if this is a rehashing of things already said... just had a few more thoughts, that i wanted to add, so excuse it if un-original beyond belief material.
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2000
- Messages
- 143
Obviously not this one.
killerkain
Satin and Crayola,
Don't know if that info was mentioned before but if it was I missed it the first time, thanks for the tips. I absolutely agree that it is important to train with every grip, but my style happens to fall more naturally to saber. I do know that horizontal fig. 8 slashes with icepick, edge out, are very strong and quick, great to open up other vitals for attack.
As mentioned, I just don't have enough mat time with knife to fully realize the importance of an icepick grip. Looking for a good FMA school around here!
Killerkain, FUNNY pic. Looks like one of those special moments to me.
Don't know if that info was mentioned before but if it was I missed it the first time, thanks for the tips. I absolutely agree that it is important to train with every grip, but my style happens to fall more naturally to saber. I do know that horizontal fig. 8 slashes with icepick, edge out, are very strong and quick, great to open up other vitals for attack.
As mentioned, I just don't have enough mat time with knife to fully realize the importance of an icepick grip. Looking for a good FMA school around here!
Killerkain, FUNNY pic. Looks like one of those special moments to me.