Police ignorance of knife laws

S

Stiletto Raggio

Joined
Jan 29, 2000
Messages
546
I was at a Gun and knife show at the local fairgrounds when I asked a Sherriff's deputy what legal concealed knife laws were. He said I "shouldn't carry anything too big".

Another deputy said that I should call my attorney. I don't have an attorney, and besides that I would probably have to pay for the research.

Does it bother anyone else that moat LEOs don't know the knife laws when they are supposed to enforce them? And if trained LEOs don't know the law, how are we supposed to know?
 
Hi SR....

I find that most Coppers are pretty up on stuff...
There are a few that aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer,, but most you will find know what they are talking about..Especially on basic type stuff....

I once had a Copper ask what kind of Shotgun I had,, and it was an Rem 870 with an extended mag tube..
He said he thought it was some new type of Dbl Barrel pump shotgun...Geeeez... Friggin City boys...

Damn boy,, You be spending Way too much time behind the Desk...
smile.gif


Guys like this just do their job and thats it.Never fired a gun other than their service pistols. Other Cops I've seen shoot hit everything but the target.... Weak!

Then theres Cops like Murray Haday at ProEdge,,that Eat,Breath and Sleep this type of stuff and can't get enough of it.Highly educated in knives,law and weapons in general.

ttyle Eric..

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
Dude, you don't know the half of it.

I've seen a guy jailed on felony charges for something in California that was *completely* legal. He got off, mainly because I prepped his public defender.

The oldest, most common and stupidest bit of "police mythology" nationwide is the "blade no longer than the width of my four fingers" thing. Utterly nuts.

Couple of clues for California: double edge is LEGAL, even large double-edge folders can be legally concealed, yada yada yada.

If you run into a true badged twit, keep cool, calmly quote the law, ask for a supervisor. That said, if they do a bad bust, turn around and SUE - for false arrest, false imprisonment, abuse of authority, the whole nine yards. Until they start PAYING for this crud, it'll continue.

Sorry for any LEOs that might have ruffled feathers over this but...I've seen the stupidity.

Some good news: in the last three months I've talked to a few cops who actually DID know some knife law, particularly the recent "unlimited concealed folder" rules. Since the law was re-vamped on 1/1/97 and 1/1/98, they've been forced to actually study knife laws. But that's unique to California...

Jim
 
Of course, there are a lot of laws on a lot of subjects, and no cop can be expected to know the whole criminal code. However, I would expect basic training in weapons laws to have some priority for street cops.

Just don't expect to get good legal advice from a cop. Giving legal advice is not what they're paid to do, and the advice they give may be colored by their experiences with not-so-solid citizens and their ideas on what would make life easier for them, rather than a study of the statutes and the latest appellate cases.

"When constabulary duty's to be done, to be done,
A policeman's lot is not an 'appy one, an 'appy one.
- Gilbert and Sullivan


Then there's the time two Glendale, CA cops told me that I should carry fixed blade knives from my car to my office concealed . . . . So it goes.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 02-18-2000).]
 
My most recent conversations regarding California’s knife laws were of the most cordial nature, just a couple of fellows working late at a big event talking about the tools of their trades. He was well versed in the local and state ordinances, and was quite frank about what he felt were the reasons behind the existing laws, and the latitude given to LEO’s in enforcing them. He told me that as long as you are a regular citizen not breaking any other laws, what author James Elroy would refer to as a squarejohn, only a real a**hole would hassle you over a knife. But he said that there are as many a**holes in his line of work as any other, but these ones could get you in trouble, and they are usually the ones least likely to know exactly what too enforce.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
I agree that many cops don't know knife laws as well as others, but there are several issues here. A great deal is circumstances-For example-John Q. Citizen is working on their car. He places a Phillips head screwdriver in his pocket and walks to the local store to get a part. He gets stopped for whatever reason and tells the officer that he has the screwdriver. Joe Gang banger is spraying graffitti on a wall, when contacted by the cops he is found with a sharpened phillips head screwdriver stuffed in the front of his pants that he carries to protect himself from other gang members. Both have a concealed deadly weapon-letter of the law, they both could go, in reality only one would. I would say most would want Joe gang banger to go. I see that the original poster is a student (My former long time occupation). I would venture that you could have two students in the same class read or study the same material, and come to seperate conclusions (or level of understanding of the material) The same thing goes with law enforcement. I am a court certified weapons expert (mainly firearms, but have also done edged weapons), and I have straightened out a good deal of my brother officers when they have made errors on these kinds of issues. I have also put a lot of real predatory animals behind bars for weapons violations. On the other hand, I don't write many tickets (I hate picking on nice people) and I hate working traffic, so I am not very up on all the legislation in the vehicle code. Other guys are great on Narcotics stuff. It is just like students, some are Art majors, and others are Physics majors, same type of thing. Hope this adds a little understanding.

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He who advances is sure of heaven-He who retreats of eternal damnation.
 
No one knows Illinois knife laws all the way, as far as I can tell. Seems they were written that way on purpose. For instance, ask a lawyer in Illinois what constitutes a "dangerous blade," which is supposed to make a knife illegal for carry. AFAIK it has never been defined by any court. I know it isn't defined in the statute. How can anybody expect cops to understand such a stupid law?
 
I've done my amateur best to post as much public-record California knife law information as I can find at www.chaicutlery.com/knifelaw.html

If you follow the "Dirk or Dagger" link, you'll find a bunch of CA appellate court cases. The last few cases address the issue of the above-mentioned screwdriver and other pointed things that can be tools or weapons, and three out of four take the position that for a concealed pointed thing to be a "dirk or dagger" in California, the prosectution must prove that the defendant intended to carry it as a weapon, though the statute says nothing about intent.

So reading the statute doesn't always tell you what the law is.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
I agree with Gwinnydapooh.My brother is a cop here and can't give me a straight answer on the subject.His advice was that as long as I'm not using the knife in a crime or hassling a cop or running naked through the streets waving it around(the knife I mean) that no one will give me any trouble about it.My own feelings are:i've never had a pat down,I am very low key,so I think odds are in my favor that carrying wont be a problem.If it is I guess I will take my chances in court.
 
A very similar thread called "Massachusetts Knife Laws" can be found here in the General Forum, and contains much of the same observations made in this thread. This problem seems to be a bi-coastal one!
 
I have opened a thread on the AKTI Forum suggesting that the people that know the most about knives (Bladeforums Members) create a model knife law to recommend in place of the vague laws that exist in so many places.

As far as the two Deputies not having an intimate knowledge of knife laws I am not suprised.

Given the typical vagueness of knife legislation I would say that the Real World knife law for most officers is if the Knife/Individual combination is threatening to me I will make the charge and let the Court sort it out.

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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
Florida's knife laws are equally vauge. I posted a thread recently and no one could say what they really mean. I have asked several LEOs and they don't either.
The PROBLEM with vauge laws are that they are perfect for SELECTIVE ENFORCEMENT!!!!! Every citizen should have the right to clear understandable laws that we can follow! And if we are in compliance then the LEOs should leave us alone!!! Not the way it is; currently the LEOs decide if they want to check you out, with no probable cause, and then try to find some nebulous "violation" that fits you!!! Not all LEOs mind you, but it should be impossible for this to happen to any citizen, yet it happens many time each day!!!

 
I agree with 4SColeman. Truth is, I probably sound like Ayn Rand saying this, but I think many of the laws passed in the last 50 years were basically passed so that my friend the government can arrest me any time no matter what I do; they want it to be a crime, however mild, to live a normal life, so I have to live the whole time on their forbearance and will presumably be grateful for their mercy in not arresting me when they could.
I am not grateful. Working on a law to allow concealed carry in Illinois; if it ever passes I'll move immediately to lobbying for straight law on knives (and to include batons--I can't fathom why I can carry my knives but any baton is illegal.)
 
To you a knife might be many things, beauty, form, function, but to many people including LEOs they are lethal weapons, and the courts views them as such. You have to use some common sense. Knives that are advertised and promoted as combat/fighting knives, well try to tell the judge that you just use it for whittling. In the shooting world, Black Talons got very bad press. You don't see too many of them around. So if you are carrying a knife called by the designer or manufacturer something like "Get Even" or "Devil's Point" things may not go too ease for you if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Knife laws are written like other laws, with a certain vagueness that allows for interpretation. Except for explicitly banned knives, the allowable fall into a broad spectrum, a spectrum that is constantly changing as quickly as the manufacturers and designers come up will different models. The definitions in the laws about knives can only keep up with this changing world by being broad. LEOs, on the other hand, are not typically as broad minded when it comes to blades whose intent and purpose is to pierce Kevlar.

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Dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
 
V44; sorry, but I cannot agree with most of what you said! Come on "blades whose intent and purpose is to pierce Kevlar"? Generally inanimate objects are not capable of having either intent or purpose. If you are advocating government control of all weapons, then we are in real trouble! How about the 3,000 pound killer known as a car?
I'm not trying to be radical, just practical! As citizens were are supposed to have the right to own weapons and the government is supposed to hold us accountable if can't exercise the right correctly. Once we are convicted of a felony, we lose the right and that's that. Is that process too much trouble for the government? Is it more convienent to punish everyone, than to hold individuals responsible for their actions?
As far as LEOs go, I realize that they do a much needed service to the whole society. But the job is to protect the good guys from the bad guys, not treat everyone as bad guys! They do a very difficult and dangerous job, and they have my thanks and respect for it. They can become so estranged from society that they go way beyond enforcing the laws; even so far as to break the laws to enforce them! The current LA scandal is an extreme example. What worries me more is the common day to day violations such as; illegal vehicle stops, illegal searches and seizures, etc... The current money and property seizure laws are outrageous! Monetary gain is now a motivating factor in our law enforcement agencies, judicial and procecutorial systems. In the current system we are all at risk!
Sorry, but you got me going!
 
Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here. First off, if you don't like the knife laws where you live, do something about it. You can start by finding out who wrote them, and write them a letter threatening to start an anti election campaign against them next time they are up for reelection. If that doesn't work, try getting some local business or law enforcement groups behind you and propose a change to your gov't. You can start this at the city council level.

Also, I'd like to point out that you are the only one with the final say of what is right or wrong. Some laws make sense, and they should be obeyed (I can't think of one here off the top of my head, but I'm sure they exist
wink.gif
). Every day I personally choose to break the law in someway shape or form. However I've never broken a law that caused harm to another (at least not that I know of). If I feel the need to carry a machinegun under my coat, then I do, but I am a responsible person, and have never felt that particular need.
Someone else here brought up an idea that we all get together and write a basic knife law for all of the states. I thinkthis would be a wonderfull thing. After all, who better than the people who use them responsibly, to write a responsible law. Unfortunately, this isn't likely to happen. Why? Money. The government simply makes too much money by keeping the laws vague. If we had clear knife laws, then half of the bull**** arrests, fines and (illegal I might add) confiscations would have to stop. That is too expensive. It's the same reason the gov't keeps tax surpluses. They shouldn't but they do. It's all about the money.


(sorry about any spelling errors, I'm too lazy to go back and find them
wink.gif
)

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"I can go over to your mama's house, and start a small fire in her panties." -G. Busey
 
I and a number of knife buddies have the section of our states statutes pertaining to knife laws with the motor vehicle paperwork
in the glove compartments of our cars. We did this a few years ago after it was suggested in a thread in Rec.Knives.
Some day it may be useful. We still have moron cops that hold the blade up to their fingers. Where that stupidity came from and how it persists is a mystery.
 
V44, you misunderstood me.

I made no claim that knives are not deadly weapons. I know a lot of people carry them strictly as tools with no weapon usage envisioned, and that's fine for them. In fact, it is their right.

I do NOT carry my knives that way. My knives are primarily tools, but only because I need tools a lot more often than I'll need weapons. Should the need for a deadly weapon ever arise my knife will be it. Frankly, I don't care that the court sees my knife as a deadly weapon. That is exactly what it is; SO WHAT? Give me one good reason why I shouldn't be allowed to carry a deadly weapon . Keep in mind that I'm 21 and never been convicted of a felony (actually never charged with anything but speeding, but that seems beside the point.) Why shouldn't I have the right to carry a deadly weapon? Why should I have to pretend that my weapon is something else in order to carry it? After all, all those LEO's you mentioned carry deadly weapons, and at least two of their weapons have NO utility value. I await your response. I'm sure you meant no offense. Neither did I, but I am curious to see how you justify your implication that I'm not good enough to carry a weapon unless I'm willing to play along and pretend that it's not a weapon.
 
I agree with you 100% in principle
Gwinnydapooh but it's just to darn expensive to have to tell it to the judge. And isn't worth the trouble.
 
Gwinny, no offense meant or taken. I guess the point I was trying to make was that there are two sides to this issue, ours and theirs. I certainly support your right to carry which ever knife you want. But if you take a small SAK out to file a hang nail, it is viewed as one thing, and if you draw a tactical to show your determination to defend yourself, it is quite another in the eyes of the law. You have a right to carry either knife, so far as I know. For me, at least, I have a need to know the consequences if I have to hire a lawyer to defend my actions in court. I pretty much know the standard when it comes to firearms. Even if a pistol is fully licensed to carry, that doesn't mean it is legal to use in every situation. It is the use that can get you into trouble, or conversely keep you out of it. With a knife, the situation is less clear. If you are stopped for some reason by an LEO in a situation where you may be patted down, it is usually the right thing to inform him if you are carrying, rather than let him find out himself. It simply raises his fear level to find out himself. For me, I would also use this "tell him first" method if I were carrying a tactical-style knife. I would not tell him if I had an SAK executive on my key ring. Where does one draw the line in such situations? In an area where the law may be vague, or where one's understanding of the law may be vague, I suggest using common sense. That in no way disparages your rights, and I am sorry to have made that implication.

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Dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
 
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