Portable generator battery charging problem.

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Bufford

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I am here again to start yet another thread on generators. This is getting on my nerves now. Last month I bought a new Yamaha EF-2600 generator that is supposed to be a regular one not an inverter type. I wanted a regular one because the inverter type are not compatible with standard battery chargers.

One of the main tasks is for the generator to run the chargers so that I can use the batteries more and the generator less around camp.

The Yamaha seemed like a dream over my older super reliable Honda EZ-2500. The Yamaha has a larger fuel tank elliminating the need to refuel late at night, and it is much quieter too, but this is where it all ends.

I plugged in the chargers and.....:eek: then:thumbdn: , then:mad: and:grumpy: !!!!!!!!

Nothing for output but a few milli amps, pretty poor for 10 amp chargers. One is a reliable old Schummacher, and a regular Canadian tire 10 amp.

I set the Schummacher to 50 amp boost and managed to squeeze out 10 amps and brought the batteries back up. Not good though as I risk over charging as it is not regulated. Not good for the charger as it is mean't to run only 20 seconds at this setting, not several hours. But as the output is so low anyways the unit didn't barely warm up.

Came home and called the dealership. They are conducting some tests now and I hope they come up with a sollution.

It appears that the problem is the output wave form of the electricity from the generator. It is not quite the same as regular edison from the electricity company. Why would Yamaha do this? My Honda was fine and so was the cheap coleman generator I bought for $199 from Sams club many years ago.

I spoke to a couple of charger companies Xantrex and another, and the tech guy told me to expect this problem due to poor wave form output from these portable generators. They told me to go larger on the charger, saying that a 35 Amp charger should provide 15 on the generator. Another tech said to run space heaters on the generator while charging, so that when the generator runs under a heavier load its output is cleaner. Sounds like rubbish to me. Any ideas?
 
Why would an inverter type not work with chargers ? They give a pure sine wave [like the power company].Other types give a modified sine wave which can cause problems with some things .
 
Inverters provide a square wave. Regular edison utility electricity is a nice rounded sign wave. The inverter square wave is like having the peaks of the square wave cut-off.

While this doesn't pose a problem with many electronics, some things including battery chargers are affected by this.

Modified square waves are somewhat like an inverter as parts of the peaks and valleys of the sign wave are cut off. The dealer told me when I bought the unit that it would provide a regular sign wave current. But this thing does not.


I am wondering if those electricity filters they sell at future shop may correct this?
 
doesn't the generator have a 12v outlet anyway? I would imagine there is a 12v chrager regulator you cab use in conjunction with the generator.
 
Bufford, inverters come in three types . Cheap give square wave, better give modified sine wave , best give pure sine wave !!! The inverter type Yamaha and the similar Honda generates DC and is inverted to AC. Somewhere on the Honda website is a graph of their sine wave ,it's as close to perfect as you can get. This is important since electronics especially amateur radio gear and also computers etc don't ike anything but sine wave....You should ask for a graph of the AC from that type generator.Maybe you'll have to get a different one ! As an amateur radio operator I know that square wave produces huge amounts of harmonics that are terrible for the radio.I don't think outboard filters would work for you .
 
After speaking with the dealer, he wants to investigate the problem. The Yamaha is supposed to provide a regular sign wave output the same as regular edison electricity from the wall.

He asked me to bring in both the generator and the charger. Later next week I should know more. At worst I may have to go back to using the older Honda, or hopefully return the Yamaha and just buy the Honda (first doing a thorough battery charging test).

Dave: many of the generator sets do not have 12V outputs for charging batteries nor do I recommend using them very often. The reason why is that the 12 V output on the gen sets are not regulated and it is very easy to over charge and cook the batteries. They are a great option for charging in a pinch. Also too lugging batteries over to the generator is hard on the back, better to just leave them installed for the solar/inverter setup.
 
I figured there would be a 12v charger module that would go between the gen and the battery for proper charging control.
 
I believe the reason the 12V is not regulated is to provide the fastest possible charge. The reasoning here is that the user needing power when in the bush wants to get it as fast as possible. 12 volt on demand in some instances is better than a regulated slower charge. IE when the boat battery is dead, and bad weather is pushing in, a fast charge can be important.
 
Battery chargers -- make sure you have a charger that is designed for the battery used !! I use AGM type batteries for amateur radio and they must be carefully controlled as far as current and voltage. Never use that old 30 year old charger on AGM or Gel cell types !! There are more and more AGM types bein g used.
 
I took the generator back to the dealer, and after running tests they agreed that the generator does not work with my battery charger or theirs either. They are giving me my money back on the unit.

Yamaha's main office said to put a load on the generator to make the electricity 'better' for the charger. Even the dealership had to agree with me on this one that something is very wrong when a load - a heavy load at that needs to be applied. My old Honda EZ-2500 works fine with loads or no loads, the chargers charge.

If you are planning to buy a generator to run battery chargers DO NOT PURCHASE A YAMAHA EF-2600. Your best bet is to test before you purchase.
 
Bufford said:
I am here again to start yet another thread on generators. This is getting on my nerves now. Last month I bought a new Yamaha EF-2600 generator that is supposed to be a regular one not an inverter type. I wanted a regular one because the inverter type are not compatible with standard battery chargers.

One of the main tasks is for the generator to run the chargers so that I can use the batteries more and the generator less around camp.

The Yamaha seemed like a dream over my older super reliable Honda EZ-2500. The Yamaha has a larger fuel tank elliminating the need to refuel late at night, and it is much quieter too, but this is where it all ends.

I plugged in the chargers and.....:eek: then:thumbdn: , then:mad: and:grumpy: !!!!!!!!

Nothing for output but a few milli amps, pretty poor for 10 amp chargers. One is a reliable old Schummacher, and a regular Canadian tire 10 amp.

I set the Schummacher to 50 amp boost and managed to squeeze out 10 amps and brought the batteries back up. Not good though as I risk over charging as it is not regulated. Not good for the charger as it is mean't to run only 20 seconds at this setting, not several hours. But as the output is so low anyways the unit didn't barely warm up.

Came home and called the dealership. They are conducting some tests now and I hope they come up with a sollution.

It appears that the problem is the output wave form of the electricity from the generator. It is not quite the same as regular edison from the electricity company. Why would Yamaha do this? My Honda was fine and so was the cheap coleman generator I bought for $199 from Sams club many years ago.

I spoke to a couple of charger companies Xantrex and another, and the tech guy told me to expect this problem due to poor wave form output from these portable generators. They told me to go larger on the charger, saying that a 35 Amp charger should provide 15 on the generator. Another tech said to run space heaters on the generator while charging, so that when the generator runs under a heavier load its output is cleaner. Sounds like rubbish to me. Any ideas?
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Well, I've been a licensed master electrician for about 38 years now. I've seen this many times in the past. The output of the new genset is NOT a true sine wave. It's probably a square wave or some other bull concoction that realy doesn't do the job. There fore the charger cannot deliver the output current it has on a true sine wave. If it was me, I'd take that piece of crap back to where you bought it and get a refund. If you really wanna screw things up, try to run a computer on it. you will see smoke (and not from your pipe). Bottom line look for a gen set with true sine wave output at 60 hz. There you cannot go wroung. Ohterwise buy a gen with DC out to match you batteries and charge direct (not a good solution).
Dave Henry
 
Dave I would be really interested to know of what generators work well with battery chargers. I am looking at buying another EZ-2500 Honda at this point since it is the right size, load and still can be lifted by one person. The only drawback of this generator is the small 1 gallon fuel tank that requires refueling every 4 and a half hours.

A square wave Honda inverter generator I used once many years ago let me down with dead batteries, so it would seem that many of these new generators generate dirty electricity via square wave or this modified square wave that the Yamaha generates. Do you know why they build them like this? It is weird how most appliances will work, but battery chargers are not.
 
You should be fine with any generator specifically designed for electronics ,computers etc. That means the EU series Hondas ! [ Hi Dave !! ]
 
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