Possession of knives in Federal facilities

G

greggmw

Joined
Mar 2, 2000
Messages
62
Federal facilities, including the post office, have a posted message on the door banning the possession of dangerous weapons per Title 18, Section 930 of the US Code. Many people believe that one may not possess any knife with a blade of 2.5 inches or greater. The code states in subsection (g)(2)

"The term dangerous weapon means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 2 1/2 inches in length."

Besides the point of your shoe laces being define as dangerous weapons, I think that any length blade legal for your area is also legal in a Federal facility in that area based on the following:

Statute
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses..... etc.

subsection (d) states:

"Subsection (a) shall not apply to -"

"(3) the lawful carrying of fierarms or other dangerous weapons in a federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes."

What do you guys think?

Any lawyers in disguise out there??

(sorry about the length, but this has been on my mind for some time)......
 
Section 930 of the Federal Crimes code is yet another example of the extreme difficulty in drafting legislation which may serve a valid purpose yet does not trample individual rights and give rise to questions as to how it is to be interpreted . Sub-part (g)(2) states that the definition of " dangerous weapon " shall NOT include a pocket knife w/ ablade less than 2.5 in. It is argueable weather this means a pocketknife w/ a 3 or 4 in. blade is by definition a dangerous weapon ? Maybe not .
It would be the burden of a person charged w/ a violation of this law to prove the Exception or affirmative defense you note in (d)(3) regarding " hunting or other lawful purposes" . I do not believe that you can rely on your state law as to what may be legally carried because Fed. law controls or prempts where Fed. facilities are involved .
 
Dan,

I agree with your assessment. Most laws aren't clearly defined until the courts rule on them. I wasn't suggesting that the state laws would help, only that using the knife lawfully within the state laws must also occur in order to assure "other lawful uses".

Meanwhile, I'm considering writing my congressman to see if any further light can be shed on the subject. He'll probably just give a conservative answer; stay below the 2.5 inch limit.

I used to think that the "liberal paranoia" about weapons was amusing. Now, I see it as a real impact on my lifestyle. I would love to be able to carry my Benchmade 705, with a 2.95" blade, everywhere on the planet. I think it's a great design and doesn't pose a threat to the public. With this Title 18, Section 930 law, I guess I'm supposed to leave it in the car when I go in the post office (also the Madison Co., AL courthouse now!)

Do we really want to allow the definition of a common pocketknife to be something with a blade of less than 2.5 inches? How about those classic medium stockman knives with a 2 5/8 inch blade? Nothing could better define a common pocket knife.

I realize I'm preaching to the choir in this forum, but it goes to the heart of what the AKTI should be doing WRT legislative efforts. Some of these laws should be challenged. I'm not suggesting a martyr get arrested or anything, but real efforts to get changes affected need to happen.

It's only going to get more restrictive.

wayne...
 
Almost every Concealed Knife Law has an exemption for a "Common Pocket Knife".

Perhaps AKTI could offer a reasonable definition for a "Common Pocketknife" to the various Courts. I would recommend that to give it credibility that some statistics be used to back it up. Maybe it can be shown that xx% of all knives sold for general utility applications have blades 3.5 inches or less and that yy% of those have a single locking blade that can be deployed with one hand.

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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
Greg

I agree with your comment that this is exactly what AKTI needs to be doing. Challenging and rewriting for clarity legislation on possession of knives. That is the goal of the Legislative committee.

We will be in Sacramento doing just that on March 21st. Les DeAsis, Bob Miller, Buck's inhouse counsel and I will be meeting with the lobbyist for the California District Attorneys Association to work on an upcoming challenge to the one hand knife exemption we got two years ago. We heard about this one before it had even become a bill.

It is hard to do this with 50 states on our current meager membership income. We will each pick up all our own travel expenses. The expense of lobbyists just to be in place for heads up information like this are expensive.

We need more members.

If this can be stopped and redirected right at the beginning that would be wonderful. If this becomes an all out grass roots struggle then we need to mobilize and I will put much more information out.

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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003


 
Greg

I agree with your comment that this is exactly what AKTI needs to be doing. Challenging and rewriting for clarity legislation on possession of knives. That is the goal of the Legislative committee.

We will be in Sacramento doing just that on March 21st. Les DeAsis, Bob Miller, Buck's inhouse counsel and I will be meeting with the lobbyist for the California District Attorneys Association to work on an upcoming challenge to the one hand knife exemption we got two years ago. We heard about this one before it had even become a bill.

It is hard to do this with 50 states on our current meager membership income. We will each pick up all our own travel expenses. The expense of lobbyists just to be in place for heads up information like this are expensive.

We need more members.

If this can be stopped and redirected right at the beginning that would be wonderful. If this becomes an all out grass roots struggle then we need to mobilize and I will put much more information out.

------------------
CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003


 
I am clueless why that posted twice...

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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003


 
I am definitely grateful to all of you for standing up for our rights. Especially with your own time and money.

What I'm mostly concerned with is that all states will eventually adopt the 2.5 inch limit for everywhere except hunting, fishing, wilderness areas, etc... This federal law certainly gives some groups an idea that the precedence has been set. In our own county courthouse there were a few recent violent incidents which sparked a ban on all weapons (in the courthouse). This includes any knife with a blade of 2.5 inch or more. I'll bet that there are plenty of 4 or 5 inch bladed scissors to be found in the building. That is exactly the problem...

Many people connect dangerous weapons with dangerous acts. If there were no knives or guns among the general population, we would see a surge in hammer or screwdriver or baseball bat crimes.

I personally think the industry should remove emphasis on 'tactical' knives because it sends the wrong message. Sure, knives can be used for self defense, but with that use-image comes the inverse; crime-use-image. I'm not saying quit producing them; I love my Microtech Socom, Benchmade 710 & AFCK, Kershaw Black-Out. We have to project the image of usage and utility.

I’m sure you guys try and do that, and I know it must be frustrating. I’ve been trying to change attitudes with some of my friends and collogues who are against knives and guns in general; some listen, but most just don’t care. I would like to see us (AKTI) try to get some type of national recognition of a common pocket knife with a blade length greater than 2.5 inches. Maybe we should consider enlisting help from the Second Amendment Foundation or the NRA (oops, talk about image issues). How about giving scholarships to law students interested in infiltrating the ACLU and pushing 2nd Amendment issues??(he-he-he)

I would love to get something rolling here in north Alabama if ya’ll have any suggestions.

Thanks for the comments

wayne…
 
Mr Buck,

While I certainly agree that AKTI needs more members and recognize the value of Lobbyist I believe that significant progress can be made now with the resources that we already have.

I would like to see further discussion on this forum on Legislation that AKTI can support, A definition for a "Common Pocketknife" that we can support and defend.

I believe that if we post a model Legislative Package that AKTI supports and a definition for "Common Pocketknife" with information to defend it the current members can promote them to their Legislatures in a grass roots effort.

IMHO this would accomplish two important things:
1. It will get the AKTI Legislative agenda in front of a number of Legislatures as a Grass Roots effort.
2. It will help build membership because prospective members will have an initiative with some momentum to join.

The sad truth is that AKTI will be faced with apathy until we gain significant momentum with the dedicated members that we have today.

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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
Scott

You are absolutely right. It is my desire to begin in California and then take model legislation out in a proactive way. that is where the grass roots support will be so important.

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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003


 
Do we have a package of Model Legislation posted so that members can begin looking for opportunities to share it with sympathetic Legislators?

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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
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