pre-WWI khukuri (late 19th c.?) [pics]

[beoram]

It never rains but it pours - received 2 different khukuris today, this one I've been waiting for for weeks (sent from Canada-to the wrong address ) [the other one I got is the bone/ivory handled WWII one which I put into a thread a few days ago--will add more there too later on].

Here's a basic pic:

Not fancy, but the seller advertised it as King Edward VII's Gurka Knives[sic] from 1936 or earlier, and this is the information he provided:

'I got it from an elderly English gentleman who informed me it was passed down from his grandfather who served with the 32 Regiment, Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry in India. So the years, by that description, certainly fit. I have never seen a true Gurkha knife with the type of blade markings you would find on Western knives or European knives. I don't know the kind of wood this is as I never
asked but I don't think it is rosewood, but, I couldn't swear.'

though--actually--if he bought it from an elderly man whose grandfather had owned it originally, that would date it at least to WWI or probably end of the 19th century--by my calculations.

The one connexion I could find between the 32 Regiment, Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry in India and the 2GR is that both fought on the Northwest Frontier in the battle of Tirah (1897, I think). I don't know enough about military matters to know how likely it would be for an officer to be transfered about between a Light Infantry Regiment and a Gurkha regiment.

Another pic, of the sheath:

Yes, that IS a badge on it (in fact, the badge of the 2GR)--which I know John Powell told us is bad--but actually it's just a 'clip-badge' which someone has clipped onto the sheath, here's a close-up:

It's nicely cast, but I don't know what it's made out of and it doesn't look particularly old, but I don't know much about the badges--everytime I've seen a 2GR badge for sale online they've been blackened ones, for some reason, unlike this one.

Whether the badge is new (or at least newer than the knife), the frog is definately newer than the scabbard--for, if one removes the frog, a strap is evident [just links for the pics from here on in, so as not the clutter up the thread too much]:

Old Strap on scabbard

The scabbard's definetely not brand new--it's a bit of tear down the old side, but I can't tell if the sheath's as old as the khukuri--if it was kept well-stored perhaps....

More pics of the khukuri itself:

Cho

butt-end

patched crack in the wooden handle

anyone have any idea what sort of wood this might be?????

another small handle-crack

spine

there's apparently no chakma--2 kardas? but it looks as if someone may have filed the chakma into a karda--hard to tell:

2 'kardas'

the blade on the khukuri itself shows definite signs of having been filed or bench-grinded [sp?], it's probably hard to tell from the pics. so it's sharp in any case.

Could anyone perhaps tell me the likely date of this khukuri--whether or it's it's actually late 19th c. or not? It does seem to curve more than what I think of as more modern khukuris.

Oh, here are the specs:

Weight: slightly under 1 lb.
Length: approx. 14inches, 10inch blade


many thanks - and happy holidays -- Ben.

 

[beoram]

I just noticed on the pics that the wood is coming out much darker than it is in the flesh--it's more of a dark brown really(it looks almost black in the photos I posted). Not sure what it is, if it's been heavily laquered or painted or it's a wood I'm unfamiliar or it's age, &c.

cheers again, B.

 

[Walosi]

Ben -
After you have learned more about the knife, it's age and approximate value, you will have enough information to decide whether to take the old finish off the handle. Some "brushed on" finishes darken with age, and hide the true nature of the wood. Any re-finishing of a valuable piece, on the other hand, could effect its' value.

 

[beoram]

Originally posted by Walosi
Ben -
After you have learned more about the knife, it's age and approximate value, you will have enough information to decide whether to take the old finish off the handle. Some "brushed on" finishes darken with age, and hide the true nature of the wood. Any re-finishing of a valuable piece, on the other hand, could effect its' value.

thanks for the info Walosi. I didn't know that about brushed-on finishes--probably I'll leave it as is. Mainly curious to learn any info some of the khukuri-experts might have on this piece.

cheers, B.

 

[Mike L.]

That knife looks remarkably like the current "issue" knife made by Khukuri House. Beo, are you sure the handle is wood and not "satin finished" horn? Can't tell from the pic.
I have a khuk that is very similar, w/out the badge. It appears to be a good servicable khukuri.

--Mike L.

 

[Yvsa]

It looks like a military rig to me, at least it has a military frog.

And Ben the 'strap' on the back isn't. It's a piece of leather that's folded down over the wide bare space underneath and it there on all khukuri scabbards I have seen.

I can't add anything else that my Bro Walosi hasn't covered. The wood could be about anything. Nice looking old khuk and one I wouldn't mind having for a while.

Oh if you do decide to do some finish work on the handle you might try the Formby method. Walosi will know whether it's worth using or not. The only reason I suggest it IF you do anything is because it has a way of seemingly restoring the natural color.
Bro is the Formby's System worthwhile?

I know it doen't produce the kind of finish you and me like, but will it do the clean up without hurting the wood any? I would like to know myself for a couple of possible refinishing projects.

 

[beoram]

Originally posted by Yvsa
It looks like a military rig to me, at least it has a military frog.

And Ben the 'strap' on the back isn't. It's a piece of leather that's folded down over the wide bare space underneath and it there on all khukuri scabbards I have seen.

Thanks for the info about the 'strap' . The frog still looks like newer leather than the scabbard itself, which may in turn be newer than the khukuri perhaps (it's *not* a quick draw one, by any means, but that may as easily mean that the wood has warped in the scabbard as it being a replacement sheath).

Does anyone know much about the badges?--I mean I can recognise what badge goes with what regiment, but I mean the actual physical badges--what sort of material there were/are made from, when particular badges were introduced, &c.

Also, does the shape of the blade mean anything to anyone, as far as age/origin/purpose go? As I said, it seems much more curved than more modern khuks.

Originally posted by Yvsa

I can't add anything else that my Bro Walosi hasn't covered. The wood could be about anything. Nice looking old khuk and one I wouldn't mind having for a while.

It's a very basic khukuri, nothing fancy, but elegant, I think. The WWII one I also got today is quite nice though - I'll put pics of that up in a bit.

Originally posted by Yvsa

Oh if you do decide to do some finish work on the handle you might try the Formby method. Walosi will know whether it's worth using or not. The only reason I suggest it IF you do anything is because it has a way of seemingly restoring the natural color.
Bro is the Formby's System worthwhile?

I know it doen't produce the kind of finish you and me like, but will it do the clean up without hurting the wood any? I would like to know myself for a couple of possible refinishing projects.

I'm not familiar with the Formby method--certainly if I did 'restore' the handle I would make sure I wasn't 'damaging' the value of the piece. What don't you like about the finish it produces?

Mike - I couldn't find which Khukuri House knife you mean. The pics there aren't very good though, are they? I'm 99.9% sure it's wood and not satin-finished-horn, particularly from examining the cracks. As I said, the pics came out much darker than it is in the flesh--in the pics it does rather look like it's horn.

cheers all - very curious to hear any other info you experts can pass on - Ben.

 

[Bill Martino]

Any way you can lighten up the pix a little, Beo? It would help.

 

[Walosi]

If that is the furniture re-finishing that involves a stripper, I'd rather take the old finish down by hand with fine paper and steel wool. Done slowly, it will leave all the service dents and knocks (slightly rounded, but still mostly "as is", and the tung oil or Tru Oil finish can be stopped at any point from a dull glow to a glass shine. If the knife is a good example of a common period military blade, the effort should be more toward restoration and preservation, even if there isn't a great deal of value involved.

 

[Mike L.]

Beo, go to the Gurkha House website (their khuks are made by Khurkuri House), and look at the "Service Number 1." It is very similar to the khuk you have, and to one I have.
As a side note, and I certainly don't want to start anything, GH is not taking any orders currently, and the owner has not made an appearance on BF for some time. You won't be able to get any info other than what is on the web site.

I recall getting an older khuk some time ago that had a rather roughly finished handle that I at first thought was wood. Turned out to be horn...figured it out after I had smoothed it out a little.
Horn can sometimes be brown or streaked.

But then, I don't have my hands on your khuk, so I can't say for certain.

All in all, it looks like a decent khuk, but I don't think it is an especially old or valuable one. The badge may have been a "throw in" by one of it's previous owners. I wouldn't suggest that the badge was put there as a deception or anything like that. This is obviously NOT a tourist blade.

Hopefully, the fabulously wealthy and rascally JP will make an appearance here and give us the real scoop.

Best,

==Mike L.

 

[Yvsa]

Ben I think Formby's is probably a good product all in all, but Walosi, myself and a few others here as well now enjoy a much more heightened experience in our wood finish.
After 40 to 80 or more coats of Birchwood Casey or other good finishing oil you get a grain pattern outta this world that changes with every movement of the piece and light.

Formby's finish is just a flat rather nondescript finish that's clean, shows the grain well, but otherwise uninteresting.

And you don't need to be embarrassed at what you don't know as yet. Everyone of us that are here now started out just as you are, asking questions and studying our favorite subject.
Everyone in the world has their ignorances about something and I most certainly have my share of subjects I'm ignorant about, but then there are a couple I know a great deal about.

And you would think after being out of an Automatic Screw Machine Shop for 6 years I would be done with it.
I woke myself up last night training yet another young man in the nuances of Machine Shop Technique!!!!!
Wouldn't be so bad, but I wake up really tired after working half the dayumed night!!!!!!
AND Wanting an after work beer!!!!!!!LMRRAO!!!!!!!

 

[beoram]

here's a couple of attempts at lighter pics, it's still not coming out quite the same as in the flesh, but....:

it's actually darker than 1st one and lighter than the 2nd one (played round in photoshop, but still couldn't get it to look quite the same).

Mike - it could be horn, but it feels like wood to me...but if it were particularly old horn, perhaps it might feel like wood I don't know. I checked out the Gurkha House site-thanks-yes it does look similar to the Service No. 1, but the blade's more curved on the one I have, and mine is smaller & lighter (at least going based on the stats on their site).

If the story that 'came with' the khukuri is true, it should date from somewhere in the late 19th to early 20th century. But perhaps some of the bits--the frog and/or scabbard, the badge are newer than the blade. Dunno - that's why I'm here

I was wondering if there were any 'badge' experts on here who might know about certain era badges look like. I agree with Mike, I think it was more 'thrown in' than being used to misrepresent the piece (esp. since the seller didn't know anything about the badge). But I wondered if that perhaps meant that one of the owners had 'consolidated' a Gurkha kit by attaching the badge to the frog in order not to lose it.

On the refinishing - if I decide to, I like the sound of Walosi's slow method via fine paper & steel wool (does one use one before the other, or alternate, or....?) And I enjoy my wood too , so I also think I'd prefer a better finishing oil.

Yes, hopefully JP might be able to propose a likely era, perhaps based on blade-shape, &c.

cheers once again all, Ben.

 

[Walosi]

Ben - In the first pic, there appears to be a gold grain running from the bolster to the grooves, and more splashes of the same above the ring, on the other side. If the colors are at least fairly true (and who knows, over the web) those resemble some of the grain in the handle of my "mystery wood" UBE. The base color of the wood is very siilar, and the gold grain (if that is what I'm seeing) is also present in mine.

Depending on how thick the old finish is, I'd start with 400 grit (still a fine paper,but will cut the finish quickly without leaving hard-to-remove marks) and use 0000 steel wool to "scrub up" after each sanding. When the finish is off,go to 600 grit paper. Nothing finer should be necessary. If the wood is similar in hardness/density to Saatisal or especially the mystery wood, the wood will take on a bright sheen without oil. The oil will protect this sheen, and subsequent coats, sanded/wooled in between and with adequate drying time, will refract light through the grain and bring out highlights not visible before.

 

[beoram]

Originally posted by Walosi
Ben - In the first pic, there appears to be a gold grain running from the bolster to the grooves, and more splashes of the same above the ring, on the other side. If the colors are at least fairly true (and who knows, over the web) those resemble some of the grain in the handle of my "mystery wood" UBE. The base color of the wood is very similar, and the gold grain (if that is what I'm seeing) is also present in mine.

Walosi, it's actually a bit darker than in the 1st pic, but there is is a gold grain running from the bolster to the buttcap--it's not quite as brilliant as the 1st pic portrays. No-one knows what the 'mystery wood' is?

Originally posted by Walosi
Depending on how thick the old finish is, I'd start with 400 grit (still a fine paper,but will cut the finish quickly without leaving hard-to-remove marks) and use 0000 steel wool to "scrub up" after each sanding. When the finish is off,go to 600 grit paper. Nothing finer should be necessary. If the wood is similar in hardness/density to Saatisal or especially the mystery wood, the wood will take on a bright sheen without oil. The oil will protect this sheen, and subsequent coats, sanded/wooled in between and with adequate drying time, will refract light through the grain and bring out highlights not visible before.

thanks for the instructions....do you think it's a good idea to refinish it? If I do the khukuri I should really do the 2 kardas too (or the karda & the chakma which someone turned into a karda--it's hard to tell). It might be a fun project to work on--though I'd want to make sure I knew what I was doing first .

THanks again, Ben.

 

[Yvsa]

Well if it was mine I might wait, probably would especially if I really wasn't sure of the knife's history, on John Powell's input before I did anything rash.
But depending on my patience at the moment and had I any Murphy's Oil Soap handy, I would maybe, just maybe, try a bit of it on a real soft toothbrush or really soft cloth use some Murphy's on it straight outta the bottle to remove any grease or what appears to be grease at the joining of the blade and bolster and let a little bit slip upon to the handle scrubbing it gently with the brush or soft cloth to remove any dirt or grime from the years.
Sometimes just a gentle washing without getting anything overly or really wet is just enough to remove enough dirt to get a hint at what's underneath.
And then some people have more will than I have.

AAnd looking at it really close with this medium the top pic does seem to me to portray horn just by the way the grain lies. The bottom pic makes me even less sure as it has sort of a reddish tint to me and appears more wood like.
Old horn will sometimes develop a kind of longitudal surface crack real similar to what appears to be what appears to be I am seeing.

Wait on John's input and then go from there.

If it's horn it would probably be best to go at it from another direction.

 

[beoram]

Originally posted by Yvsa
....looking at it really close with this medium the top pic does seem to me to portray horn just by the way the grain lies. The bottom pic makes me even less sure as it has sort of a reddish tint to me and appears more wood like.
Old horn will sometimes develop a kind of longitudal surface crack real similar to what appears to be what appears to be I am seeing.

The hue is much closer to the bottom pic than the top pic. I was just trying to bring out the grain/texture by over-exposing the 1st pic. It does have slight reddish-tinge, but it's pretty dark. I haven't a lot of experience with horn actually, so perhaps I'm mistaken about it being wood rather than horn. But it's nothing like the horn on my HI BAS or on my ivory/bone-inlayed WWII. If I tap on it it makes the sound I associate with wood and there are little indentations (almost like someone pushed in with a thumb-nail) which don't look like they would happen with horn. But if it's 100 year-old horn, maybe it'd seem a lot like wood--unlike my new HI BAS or 50-year old WWII. Dunno.

Originally posted by Yvsa
Wait on John's input and then go from there.

If it's horn it would probably be best to go at it from another direction.

That's my plan--to wait for John's input and that of other military khukuri experts (or anyone else for that matter). Not planning on getting out the steel wool tonight (I don't even think I have what I'd need at the moment).

cheers again, B.

 

[beoram]

this pic actually gives a fairly good representation of the handle colour/hue. B.

 

[John Powell]

This is a 60s style kukri. Could have a wooden grip, but more likely it is horn. From the look of the scabbard I wouldn't even be sure of a military background and the 2nd GR badge being stuck on there means nothing. The badge itself looks like the standard moulded white medal plus chrome made anywhere from the 60s till yesterday.

Someone did sharpen the chakmak.

The seller probably bought it and the story in good faith so if that's the case he can't be faulted although none of it rings true.

 

[beoram]

Originally posted by John Powell
This is a 60s style kukri. Could have a wooden grip, but more likely it is horn. From the look of the scabbard I wouldn't even be sure of a military background and the 2nd GR badge being stuck on there means nothing. The badge itself looks like the standard moulded white medal plus chrome made anywhere from the 60s till yesterday.

Thanks John. A bit disappointing, but I had suspicions already. Still not sure about the handle. If perchance it is military, would it be Indian/British or is there no way of knowing?

Originally posted by John Powell

Someone did sharpen the chakmak.

I thought so....

Originally posted by John Powell

The seller probably bought it and the story in good faith so if that's the case he can't be faulted although none of it rings true.

Yes, I'm pretty sure the seller bought it & the story in good faith--it's just whoever he bought it from that 'spun the yarn'.

Thanks again, Ben.

 

[John Powell]

Ben, there was no such thing as British India after 1947. The were Gurkha regiments that stayed under the auspices of the new Indian Government, but this knife does not fit under that category. If anything this might have been from the Nepalese Army, but I doubt it.