Preserve serrations on small file knife?

J

joedhiggins

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May 31, 2016
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Long story short, a buddy wants a small utility/hunter made from an old file (fine, single cut) his grandfather passed on (nicholson, old, through hardened, I am assuming it is 1095/w2/w1 on the high carbon end), spark test looks like it is very carbon rich. I will HT like 1095 or w1/2.

Anyway, I have no desire to give the man a 4" or so blade that is nigh on 3/8" thick, so I am curious if anyone can think of/knows a way to preserve a visual record of the serrations while still getting something that has geometry, distal taper, etc. appropriate to its size and function.

The only thing I can think that may work is acid etching/wire brushing off any oxidation, and forging a sanmai with 1018 or similar cladding. The final etch may show the saw teeth, but then it is a fine serration file and I have little confidence at all that the teeth will be visible at all in the final knife. Throwing it into a canister seems to pose a similar problem.

I am guessing that there is no practical solution, but just wanted to see if anybody had any ideas.
 
Hengelo_77 said:
You can leave the teeth on the thin side of the file as spine jimping
Click to expand...
Yeah. This may be the route I go. Does force me down the stock removal route, which isn't my favorite, but I did play with the file a bit and the serrations would make effective jimping.
 
Do you forge, Joe?

If so, it isn't a problem to squash it down to below 1/4" and keep the file pattern discernible.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Do you forge, Joe?

If so, it isn't a problem to squash it down to below 1/4" and keep the file pattern discernible.
Click to expand...
I basically only forge. I have only made a couple of stock removal knives, and then only when I need to use an alloy that just won't move effectively when hot. The less time on the grinder, the better in my world.

I do most of my forging with a big rounding hammer. I am guessing I should use a lighter hammer and the flat die to help preserve the serrations?
 
Definitely a flat face... a rounding hammer will do a number on the pattern. I would gradually work down your intended "Flats" and stock remove everything else. If you start drawing out the whole knife, everything will elongate and distort the pattern.

fileknife.png
 
I would consider making it a small tanto-ish utility blade like a kwaiken.

Grind the back side down to the desired thickness ( say .10") and then grind the chisel edge bevel only about halfway up the side with teeth. This will make the upper bevel, and maybe some of the spine, have file teeth remaining. You can handle it as you wish, but a wrap could also expose the file teeth on the tang.

Here is a great thread by Matthew Gregory on making one:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/making-a-kwaiken-with-mr-mike-coop-photos-added.1548648/
 
Rick Marchand said:
Do you forge, Joe?

If so, it isn't a problem to squash it down to below 1/4" and keep the file pattern discernible.
Click to expand...
Well, that was some good advice. Super easy. The really interesting bit was that when I forged the bevels, I thought I had lost the serrations on the areas I had heavily forged (I didn't care because the flats were still visible and undistorted). I was wrong. After pickle, the serrations were visible on the entire knife and were only seriously distorted in the areas of the heaviest work (point and tang). It appears that the scale works its way into these crevices and because it is much harder than steel at temp, it preserves them perfectly.

I may post a pic later, but that was super easy and turned out really nicely.

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I would consider making it a small tanto-ish utility blade like a kwaiken.

Grind the back side down to the desired thickness ( say .10") and then grind the chisel edge bevel only about halfway up the side with teeth. This will make the upper bevel, and maybe some of the spine, have file teeth remaining. You can handle it as you wish, but a wrap could also expose the file teeth on the tang.

Here is a great thread by Matthew Gregory on making one:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/making-a-kwaiken-with-mr-mike-coop-photos-added.1548648/
Click to expand...

That thread is great. I have some more files and may try this for the next one. I have yet to do any of the fancy handle wraps, so I will have to take my time on a build like that.
 
I think what you are actually seeing is the file pattern preserved in a series of cold shuts.... lol. You'll need to grind those out close to the edge.

When heat treating blades with heavy texturing, I apply a thin coat of clay to prevent stress risers. You'll end up with some hamon potential in the process, should you choose to pursue that.
 
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You can pull the core out of paracord and use it for ito. It makes a good wrap. Use a light coat of cleasr-coat epoxy resin and the wrap will be rock solid.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I think what you are actually seeing is the file pattern preserved in a series of cold shuts.... lol. You'll need to grind those out close to the edge.

When heat treating blades with heavy texturing, I apply a thin coat of clay to prevent stress risers. You'll end up with some hamon potential in the process, should you choose to pursue that.
Click to expand...
Definitely not cold shuts. Even in the areas of heavy forging, the metal expanded more rapidly than the teeth forged down. They became ridges. I did a deep sabre grind, so the ridges stop far from the edge. They are preserved a on the (small) flats, on the ricasso and along the spine before the clip point. I would post a pic, but it is currently covered in anti scale awaiting normalization and HT.

Will consider a hamon, but not knowing the precise alloy, it may be more trouble than it is worth, especially considering I want to avoid an interrupted brine quench with the ridges present.
 
I can't see how they could be anything but cold shuts. Look at the geometry of file teeth(I have actually made a file by hand). You are basically folding them over when hammering them down) I'm not saying its a bad thing... it is just the way it is... and the reason you can forge so much and not get rid of them.
 
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https://imgur.com/a/CIbE8Ab

So that is a closeup of the serrations on an unforged file, the 2 following pictures are the remaining serrations on the knife flats where I had forged it down to about 1/2 the thickness of the original piece. I will post some photos of the knife when I finish it.
 
6srSrV9.jpg


fSefPAy.jpg
 
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