press vs. hammer

Will52100

Will52100

Joined
Dec 4, 2001
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What would be the best tool for drawing out steel round bar, damascus billits, and flat stock?

I should say the more compact the better, and the easier to build. Not to mention cheapest. I figure that means a hyd. press, but how well do they draw? Or would I be better off waiting untill I move to a larger shop and just buy or build an air hammer?

I have considered a treadel hammer, what about those? I have also considered a rolling mill, but I understand that they require the steel to be nearly at welding heat to operate, and thats way to hot for most of the forging I do.

I should also mention that out of those tools mentioned I have only operated a 50# little giant, and realy liked the way it operated.

Any thoughts on the pro-s and cons are apreated.

Thanks
 
I want a press myself now,I am finding that if you have a press you can do a bunch of cool welding and patterning of Damascus that you can't with just a Power Hammer.But you can't beat the power hammer to stretch out a round or flat bar of carbon steel.Both are a must for any smith now days I believe.
Will sounds like you need to make a road trip up and spend a weekend with Donna and me so we can stretch you out some blanks with the power hammer,and stay up all night making Damascus and BSing about knives...
Bruce
 
Will,

I don't have a press yet, but a friend does and for making damascus I think that is for sure the way to go. You can do a lot of different patterns with a press and they work so slick, but I do have this 25# little gaint hammer, and I wouldn't give it up for anything :cool: . I guess the problem is they work so good together, my friend has both sitting side by side and it sure is fun to go play at his shop. I don't know Will, after using both on the same piece of steel I've come to the conclusion I need both, I sure hope my wife doesn't read this. :D
So get one of each and you'll be ready for anything and everything. :D

Good luck

Bill
 
I can think of all kinds of reasons to have it all, power hammer, press, rolling mill, etc. The area you live in may limit the tools you can operate. A press can stretch out pretty fast and it moves the center of the mass. A power hammer, if not quite big enough, will move the outside of the steel. The rolling mill can do it very fast but it is mostly elongating and it moves the outside of the mass. I just completed a rolling mill and I love it. I am now rolling out the 52100 round bar and it saves me a lot of time.

My preference would be to have the press first, assuming you have and anvil and hammer, as it is quiet and it will move the steel with a lot of control. It is also lighter, cleaner, and usually takes up less space. The press can be separate from the motor and pump and could actually be made into a table top piece of equipment.

Will, I just completed the 320 layer piece of damascus for my MS test knife. The rolling mill did a beautiful job of welding and rolling it out. I used 52100 and 15N20 and the layers were very uniform. Later I am going to get set up to do patterns with it. I guess it would depend on how much steel you would need to flatten as to the method you wanted to use.
 
I ve had a 50lb. little giant and sold it to build a press. The rolling mill sounds interesting but I dont have time to make one. I cant say enough good about the press. You can draw good with it although not as fast as a powerhammer but with precise control. The real cool thing about a press is the variety of dies you can make for different operations. It is time consuming to make some of the dies but they dont really wear out. Imagine forging a tapered tang and a distal tapered blade with one finger. I hardly use the anvil anymore. You can forge weld a billet of damascus, change dies and draw it out, change dies again and flatten and square the billet to within 1/16" or less for stock removal blade steel. Make some adjustments on the pop-off valve to reduce the pressure and delicatly forge edgewise to forge the tip and tang. Not to mention mosaic damascus which the powerhammer cant do. I dont miss the little giant at all. My neighbors like me again.

Oh a bench top press is possible although mine is over 7 feet tall. The pump and motor can even be in the next room. Press designs are plentiful. I say you need at least 25 tons. I think mine is 36 tons.
 
I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned manipulation. A hammer works on surface manipulation, while a press works internally in your steel.

A hammer will help hold heat in your work and you can draw material very fast.

A press will allow rapid heat-transfer and your work will cool off quickly and not draw as fast. HOWEVER, I would definitely recommend a press as the first tool. There are a myriad of things you can do with it, and you have soooooo much more control.

I would like to have a rolling mill myself.

Why are you saying you would have to work it "too hot." ???

Nick
 
one smith here in the philippines jury-rigged a land lever press. using a hindged jaw, blocks and wedges, he can put on the ideal longitudinal taper and primary bevel angle on a bar stock in just one press. he'll then reverse the blade and put a lateral taper on the tang as well.

seems like a great time and effort saver compared with hammering and grinding.
 
One of these days I'm gona have to take a weekend off and come see you again Bruce.

Nick, the reason I am thinking a rolling mill would be to hot is that for 52100 I forge in the 15-1600 deg. range and I think I read somewhere that for the rollers to grab the steel right they had to be close to welding heat.:confused:

I think I'm going to start on a press next time I'm in. Dont' have time right now, got a batch of stainless to finish up and send to heat treat. What promted this post was that I took a day off to sweat at the forge and make some more damascus. Let's just say I've come to the conclusion that there has to be an easier way than slinging a 10lb. hammer in this heat.

I am looking at moveing in the near future so maybe then I can add a power hammer and have a hammer/press set-up.

Thanks
 
Will,
If you have 8" to 9" rollers and they both are powered, it will grab the steel too easy. The initial problem I had was that I couldn't control the amount of reduction and crashed my machine and busted chains till I got the problem solved. This was solved by using spacers (I have one of the rollers connected to a hydraulic cylinder). 1500 to 1600 is about what I heat to before rolling. It has done a great job for me. The rpm on the rollers is between 35 and 45. Mine takes up a lot of room as it is powered by a six cylinder Chevrolet engine with standard transmission. I made mine so that I could furnish 52100 flat bar to other knife makers, for forging or stock removal. Hopefully I can make enough with it to pay for it and make it easier for me to forge my knives.
I had tried it with small rollers and slow rpm and it didn't work. I talked to Darryl Meir last year at the Blade Show and he helped me out tremendously. It does take a lot of power to run the rollers as they should be. I had stopped the engine several times before I figured things out. 52100 is a very hard steel and it only moves when its hot.
 
Rex Walter found a study that contrasted the microstructure after steel was worked with a hammer and a press. The Hammer won when it came to refining the grain structure. It all depends upon what you can use as far as where you live and where you want to go with your knives.
 
Well, to test out the press idea I borowed my father's log splitter and made a set of dies for it. I can see where a press would come in handy, but even with drawing dies I couldn't go thinner than 1/4", and with flat dies I couldnt' go less than 3/8". I tested out on a piece of 7/8" round bar. It is a 25 Ton press and while it's pretty fast drawing out metal seems real slow.

I got to figurering cost, and think I'll be able to build Jerry Allen's "Dusty" JYH for about the same money. I like the fact that it is compact and looks very simple to build. It is a 50lb. mechanicle hammer.

Has anyone used this type hammer befor? If so how well did it work?

Also the noise won't be an issue.

Thanks for all your help and sugestions.
 
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