Price and integrity who is to say what it’s worth?

[Scott Evans]

Is the price a maker charges for a knife relative to anything?

Indulge me briefly as I’m just not sure how to get this across …

Some scenarios:

A new maker charging top dollar for average work.

Or …

A maker charging top dollar for good quality knives that are produced via automation (CNC, Jigs, outsourcing, what ever).

Or …

A hobby guy (i.e. some one who has another source of lively hood and need not turn a profit) who is producing top quality for low, low prices.

Who among us feels qualified, or better yet, commissioned as an authority to determine what others should or should not charge for their work?

Is there such a thing as fair market value with regard to knives?



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“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Scott,

You might want to check out a couple of threads on this very subject in the Custom Knife Forum.



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Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur

http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[Scott Evans]

Did not see them before posting here.

This is getting to be a large place.

Feel free to move, lock or delete.



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“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”

 

[Scott Evans]

Sorry Les,

Just looked at the other thread.

I did not have Lynn in mind … or anyone else for that matter. I’m not going to be involved with that … will not waist my time reading those threads.

My question is generic and not intended as an opportunity to take a stab at anyone. Please leave it stand where it is. I am interested in evaluating the line of thinking, with regard to pricing, that the members may have.

Not who they think is over or under priced.




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“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”

 

[Senator]

Originally posted by Scott Evans:
Who among us feels qualified, or better yet, commissioned as an authority to determine what others should or should not charge for their work?

I do. So should every other knife buyer. Where does that authority come from? Our wallets.

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Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection

Member NCCKG , SCAK, and AKTI

Deo Vindice

 

[Samurai6]

A knife, or anything else sells for what somebody is willing to pay for it. I guess there is a sucker born every minute, but that doesn't apply to us. There are great knives for great prices, so why get concerned if there are some overpriced knives out there. Just don't buy them.

 

[DaveH]

This one's easy. The price set by a maker or seller, is relative to absolutely nothing, and means absolutely nothing.

You could make the argument that "In General" knives of such and such, have a price range of whatever. However this generalization does not apply in any way to a specific case of a certain knife and a certain individual setting a price.

DaveH

 

[Jim March]

I determine what I'm willing to pay, even for a custom, on a purely "practical" basis. I want ergomonics, funtionality, a good-enough-for-social-occasion steel and a good carry system.

I am NOT "speculating on future price increases" or "buying a name".

Then again, I'm one of the few that street-carry handground knives on a regular basis. I'm not a "collector" of any sort.

I think a maker should start, first and foremost with *ideas*, not a "market analysis". Chris Reeve is a good example: both the fixed blades and the Sebenza represent groundbreaking ideas in cutlery. Ditto Busse (regarding ergonomics and INFI), Newt Livesey (the Woo and similar broke new ground!), Hartfield's Katanas, many others. It doesn't even need to be a NEW idea, look at HI or Paul Chen.

Jim

 

[narruc1]

Hi Scott... In my humble opinion, I find the the established makers that have been around have their prices set, and established already. Their popularity is going to dictate what the prices are going to be. There are some very fine makers that do not have the reputation as yet, and their knives go for less. Even If their knives are made as well as the veterian makers they sell for less. I think that is where we get the best value for our money. As they get better known I'm sure their prices will go up as well, and as it should be.

Being a wise consumer helps... Knowing what goes into making a knife helps. If the knife was forged, or if it was just stock removal, damascus, or polished, etc.; These all come into consideration for estimating the cost. Just look at the difference between Kit Carson, and Steve Schwarzer's prices, and for that matter, Why would someone pay over $10,000 for a Moran knife? I think Kit's knives are just as well made as Steves, but why the huge price difference, and Moran is way out there. He has got to have the ugliest knives around, but look what he gets for them. Help me with that!

Well that is my take on this subject. All I know is that we all pay are dues intil we get a little knife savvy.

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BC... For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know... Semper Fi

 

[beginner]

Just to try and find another way into this,there is an essay written in the 30s I think by Walter Benjamin about the concept of value and originality (I dont have a link to it but it is widely published in art criticism anthologies,I think the title is "The work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction")
Benjamin looks at how the notion of originality affects our idea of value of art,ie if you are looking at a perfect copy of a great painting is it the same as seeing the original,(and if not why not?)and if so what is its value relative to the original work ?
It seems to me that this type of thinking can be helpful when asking "is that a fair price",so for instance am I paying $200 for a custom knife because I know its a custom knife,or so I can tell my friends,or because it really is appreciably better than the makers collaboration with a manufacturer that produces the same knife for £50.(I know it may not always be the same knife,but you get the drift of the arguement ?)
Personally I like beautiful things around me,they make my life more pleasant (I have more knives than I can justify in terms of pratical use,and no doubt will buy more)and I consider knives to be as valid an art/craft form as any other,so what it comes down to is the personal "feel" of how much I want the knife,that of course being affected by how much money I have available.
(Does that mean makers should charge rich guys more so they get the same feeling of quality/value that I do ?)
Sorry if this all seems like rambling,Im still pretty new around here and thought it might be of interest.

 

[PhilL]

beginner, I don't think that was rambling, I think it was very well said.
As for me of course I buy what I like and can afford. I've been buying customs and handmades because they are special to me and seem to be a greater value. I've never had a handmade suit, although I have a friend that, that's all he'll wear and I can see the difference in quality. It's just that I know however well made a suit might be, one day it will wear out or go out of style. The knives I buy for my collection I will have until I die.

I'm not a hunter, but I have a few handmade and custom hunters, why? Because I like the design. I'm not going to fight at the Alamo, but I buy Bowies for the same reason. There is only so much money that I feel comfortable spending on a knife, right now I'm having a hard time getting over the $300 hurdle. Now, I know to some that's a lot and to others here it's pocket lint, it really doesn't matter. Some of the makers that I've met here and become friends with know I can't afford their knives no matter how much I may admire them and I'm sure they understand. I've heard more than one say, "Heck, I can't afford my own knives." I've never heard one of them say that their knives weren't worth the price and that they were getting something over on their customers. Knifemaking is a hard business, and there are many true artists, and beauty remains in the eye of the beholder. Bottom line is we determine the price of our knives and we vote with our wallets.

Now, that's rambling.

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"Will work 4 Knives!"
My PhotoPoint Site

 

[volvi]

My 2 Cents:

I think knives are worth what a person is willing to pay for them. I applaud all makers and congratulate them for getting as much as they can for their knives.

 

[UW Mitch]

I try not to buy knives as an "investment," although it might do better than my stocks

Anyway, I'd rather have a knife from a maker who I like. Big name no longer impresses me, especially if I find they outsource a lot of machining. I think it's cool if a maker has the money and expertice to operate and program their own CNC. But when a maker sends a CAD file off to the shop, how custom, or handmade is that?

I buy from people who I like, Gene Osborn, Ray Rogers, Tom Mayo, Deryk Munroe (through Dan O'Malley @ Bladegallery) etc. The latest knife I've put on order is with Larry Davidson. Anyone ever heard of him? He's relatively new, but I liked the look of his knives, and he seems like a great guy.

Sorry if I've gone off course.

~Mitch

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My Hobby Page

 

[psy-ops]

Scott,

I am not willing to go beyond the 200.00 mark
That is my limit. I am on a budget.

I think there is a thing called market value.
Like bm-spyderco-kershaw are in a price bracket

then crkt-gerber-buck-gigand are in a slightly lower bracket.

then there are customs I think certain makers who feel their work is in the same bracket as wayne goddard or wally hayes or don fogg charge accordingly. I don't think it is a perfect system but that is capitalism any other way are systems that work even worse than ours.

I have to say though I only buy production and semi-custom work. But I do believe american custom knife makers have a tremendous amount of integrity. I have spoken to many at different shows and on the phone I never felt one was conning or scamming me. If you truly have an eye for quality craftsmanship than these prices are justified.

I hope I understood the question correctly.

thanks
chris

 

[MaxTheKnife]

Hey Scott, nice thread you have going here. Brought up some real fine thoughts on knife prices. I've said it before and I'll say it again here. I price my knives at a 'gut' level. I use my instincts and my own experience as a knife buyer to determine a price for any knife I make. It works for me. And, it seems to work for my customers.

It's nice to have the freedom to express your opinion in an open forum like we have here. But, I've just got to say something about one of the posts above.

Narruc1, you'll go nowhere fast showing the kind of arrogant disrespect for one of the pioneers of knife making in this country. Mr. Bill Moran has his own style. And it is his legacy. I happen to think his knives are beautiful, if priced out of my range. I have met Bill, and he is a fine man with a good heart. I'd be willing to bet that Bill wouldn't give a spit about your comments on his 'ugliest knives around'. But, I take offense at those words.

Sure, it's a free country. But, sometimes freedom will get your butt in a sling if you don't use it wisely or abuse it. Sometimes it's better to keep your opinions to yourself. This would be one of those times. I sincerely hope you will think before you type that kind of slime, smearing someones good name in the future. Basically, what I'm trying to say here is: Be nice just because you can, or else just STFU!

[This message has been edited by MaxTheKnife (edited 11-08-2000).]

 

[Paracelsus]

Hmmm. Max, that last bit was a little over the top. Everyone has a right to express their opinion in this forum.

Since I believe in free markets, and collect knives as ART, I have no problem with the apparent gap between price and value for knives. It all depends on how you define Value.

If you think knives are simply tools, then paying more because of a makers reputation is silly. But if his reputation is primarily based on the quality of his work from a utility standpoint, it might be worth paying a little more to own the work of a maker who you think makes a superior knife. This is why I use and collect the work of members of the American Bladesmith Society.

If you think about buying knives as Art, then you can start to understand why some people think a simple hunter by a guy like Moran or Loveless is worth thousands of dollars in trade.

Are these knives worth that much more as functional tools? I can't see how. But as objects of Art, the artists place in history and his reputation start to effect the relative value of the work more than the Quality of the work. It is often mentioned that Loveless and Moran's knives do not meet the very high standards for fit and finish that are common today. I don't think that matters at all. Folks buying these knives value them for reasons that transcend their function.

Not everyone looks at knives like this, and that is perfectly understandable. There is plenty of room in the knife market for buyers with all sorts of motivating interests. There is a place for knives at either end of the price scale. There are some very good tools at both extremes. And some crappy ones. Only the buyer can decide what the fair price of a knife should be, justify why they Need to buy it, and determine what it's true Value is. I always try to purchase knives whose Value is greater than the Price.

Paracelsus, wondering around

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 11-08-2000).]

 

[phatch]

It's very similar to the question of how you negotiate your salary with a prospective employer.

When asked how much I expect to be paid, my response is always, "As much as possible."

Their reply is always, "No, seriously."

Me, "I WAS serious".

No one can tell you the value of the knife to you. They can only tell you what the general history of sales for knives like that is. Whether you accept that or not is only your decision, the same as whether the seller accepts your offer is their decision.

Regardless of the methods and manufacturer of the knife, someone gave up their most valuable commodity, time directly out of their life, to produce it for you. How much is that worth? And you are exchanging some X hours of your life in exchange for that knife. Is it still worth it?

Phil

 

[MaxTheKnife]

Sorry about that Para. It just steams me to see that kind of statement made so flippantly about another man's work. I did go a little overboard though. So, my apologies. Maybe I should try switching coffee brands or something.

 

[Marion David Poff]

Steve Harvey-

I guess there is a sucker born every minute, but that doesn't apply to us.

If you are speaking of the knife-buying public, I disagree.

If you are speaking of enthusiasts, I disagree.

If you are speaking of a select group, then I agree, but the comment is meaningless. There are always those who understand. But that group is one of the smallest imaginable, and I know I am not completely knowledgable enough to not get taken.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

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