Price of pattern welded steel

Keith Montgomery

Keith Montgomery

Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
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The other day I contacted a maker about possibly ordering a knife. I saw a knife of his in Knives 2008 and wanted to get some prices. The knife in the book had a blade made from 1095, but I asked for pricing for 52100 and pattern welded. The maker got back to me with "The price will be the same for whatever steel you choose". I wondered if he had missed that one of the steels I asked about was pattern welded. He said no, it took him as long to forge down a round bar of 52100 as it did to make a billet of pattern welded steel.

That kind of floored me. I have been told anything from a hundred dollars more to a price that almost tripled the cost of the knife, but I have never been told that it would be the same price. How can one maker, who by the way makes really nice pattern welded steel, have no upcharge, while some others charge an arm and a leg?
 
Without knowing how he finishes either blade, it's hard to say.......
But, If he forges 52100 from large round stock, and pattern welded blades
from bundles of fairly thin stock (both, under power), he might
be able to do a pattern welded blade as fast, or faster.
 
Perhaps he's not undercharging for his pattern welded steels, but overcharging for his carbon steel. :confused: ;) :D
 
More than one bladesmith has told me that finishing out a plain carbon steel blade is more work than finishing out a damascus blade.
 
Danbo said:
More than one bladesmith has told me that finishing out a plain carbon steel blade is more work than finishing out a damascus blade.
Click to expand...

I would sure agree with that, but not sure it equals the extra effort in making up the damascus.
 
Danbo said:
More than one bladesmith has told me that finishing out a plain carbon steel blade is more work than finishing out a damascus blade.
Click to expand...

If this is indeed the case, then one must ask, why do some makers charge such a premium for pattern welded steel?
 
Keith Montgomery said:
If this is indeed the case, then one must ask, why do some makers charge such a premium for pattern welded steel?
Click to expand...

Assuming similar bar and billet stock size (to Russ's point), even though the damascus finishing process is less time consuming than carbon the overall process takes more time. IMO, you should expect to pay a premium for the maker's expertise in mastering the pattern welded process even if it didn't take more time.

I have stopped trying to figure out some maker's pricing logic.
As was pretty much determined in a past thread, pricing is one of the things makers struggle with the most. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=484630

I would not try to figure it out, just thank the maker for offering you value.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
If this is indeed the case, then one must ask, why do some makers charge such a premium for pattern welded steel?
Click to expand...
I think alot of it is a holdover from the early days of damascus. When Bill Moran started making damascus steel, and doing it in a coal forge, it represented a large portion of the time required in making a knife. It used to be that a damascus knife would cost twice what a carbon knife did on average from most makers. And still you were paying alot for the uniqueness of the material. With better equipment these days and alot more people making it, the market wont bear the prices it used to for damascus steel. I think some makers just haven't figured it out yet.
 
My position to would be, assuming that i will actually be able to make pattern welded steel, that a random blade on a 4 inch hunter would be maybe a $50 upcharge or so because that would reflect the additional value of the material over carbon of it was bought in raw form. I'm not going to charge more just because I am slow...lol.
 
mike577 said:
I think alot of it is a holdover from the early days of damascus. When Bill Moran started making damascus steel, and doing it in a coal forge, it represented a large portion of the time required in making a knife. It used to be that a damascus knife would cost twice what a carbon knife did on average from most makers. And still you were paying alot for the uniqueness of the material. With better equipment these days and alot more people making it, the market wont bear the prices it used to for damascus steel. I think some makers just haven't figured it out yet.
Click to expand...

Mike, perhaps they aren't the ones that have not figured it out. ;)

Pattern welded steel adds an additional artistic process to the making of the knife, why should the maker not be paid for it.

Is there anywhere else in the general marketplace where upgrades or add-ons are free? Perhaps makers that engrave should throw that in too. I will have to talk to Jerry and Steve about that. :D

I agree the pattern welded steel of today should not double the price of a knife, however an additional 15-25% depending on the complexity of the pattern is not unreasonable.

It reduces a maker's incentive to be creative and innovative if he is not going to be compensated for it.
If I remember correctly it took Jerry about 4 full days of experimenting, welding and hammering to get the damascus pattern just the way he wanted it on the knife below.

This thread gives an idea as to why damascus adds cost to a knife.
http://www.fisk-knives.com/Progressive_W_pattern_Sendero.html

320093531_c31b40af5f_b.jpg
 
I have no problem with pattern welded steel costing more. I just wonder about the wide discrepancy in pricing between makers. Is it that some makers put a lot more time and energy into making the steel?
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I have no problem with pattern welded steel costing more. I just wonder about the wide discrepancy in pricing between makers. Is it that some makers put a lot more time and energy into making the steel?
Click to expand...

I think that's a good part of it Keith. Look at the complexity (thus time and material) of the pattern welded steels of today. I had the pleasure of seeing Steve Dunn explain and draw the steps to making the feather pattern that's become so popular. It's quite amazing, beautiful and time consuming to make.

And as I said in my earlier post, some makers have their pricing structure to a science and others IMO just price on a whim.

I see pattern welding steel as an ancient art form of it's own in addition to being an important part of the overall design of the knife. If makers start giving it away and collectors stop paying for it then the craft will eventually be lost. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494850

Some examples:

SteveDunnPhotos001-1.jpg


HancockIvoryHunter.jpg


1775119370_173ea1d5c7_b.jpg
 
Keep in mind that not all damascus is the same - as Kevin's photos beautifully illustrate. I happen to love random pattern, but it doesn't reflect the same investment of time, labour and creativity that some of the more complex patterns do. There are a lot more steps and a lot more opportunities to screw up.

Is there a discrepancy in pricing? You bet. Some makers will charge more of a premium than others. But that is just one factor to consider in your overall assessment of the value of the piece. The search for uniformity in pricing in custom knives will ultimately be a fruitless one.

Danbo does raise a valid and often-overlooked point - finishing a carbon steel blade exceptionally well is reflective of significant labor and talent as well. Take a look at a carbon steel bowie by the likes of Hancock, Dean, Newton, Wheeler, Andrews (not an exhaustive list) and ask yourself - why doesn't everyone do it this well? (Answer - not everyone can).

Roger
 
Danbo said:
More than one bladesmith has told me that finishing out a plain carbon steel blade is more work than finishing out a damascus blade.
Click to expand...

I have NO IDEA where that comes from!
It's no secret I use a lot of Jerry Rados' steel, but when I finish out mono-steel, it's a matter of making a nice satin rubbed 400-600 finish.
Not a big deal.
But when I finish out pattern welded steel, it gets finished out all the way to hand-rubbed 1500 - 2000 grit, buffed to a full polish, etched, hot-blued, and re-sanded with 2500!
Almost double the man hours in finishing.
Not to mention what I had to pay Jerry for the steel!
If I was making it as well, I can only imagine the time involved.
Anybody that says it's the same amount of time should be held suspect!
 
Well there are other variables to be considered.

1. Research: some patterns are difficult to achieve and one must invest quite some time in research and testing. That research cost must be part of the final costs. Research also includes the combination of steel alloys and the best way to heat treat them. There are general guidelines but I am sure that almost all makers heat treat their damascus according to their own experience because no matter how much one can estimate the carbon content on a billet, the way it is forged, how many welds, products used during anealling and many things can change the amount of carbon.

2. It depends on the losses: some patterns can be achieved with little less than 50% of mass loss during the welding process. All makers making their own damascus will tell that if you start a billet with 10lbs of steel you will end it with significantly less weight. The more complicated the patterns, more steel you will probably loose in the process. Some patterns only loose 10% of the total mass like the good old ladder pattern and its derivations.

3. Steel combinations and losses: some steel combinations for damascus are pretty easy to make, others are hard to forge weld and will end up in more tries and some losses. That will also cost in time and material. If you weld 1095 to 1020, odds are you will get it right at the first time if you have some experience and equipment, but if you are using W1 and VCO, however, you might loose a billet now and then.

4. Equipment investments: in order to make damascus you don´t really need a hydraulic press and a power hammer, but if you wan´t to make more than one per month and still forge other knives, you will have to buy such equipment. On the other side, these machinery will also help in carbon steel knifes as well.

I am sure there can be other factors. I am just listing some I have been educated about by some makers.

Jeff Velasco
 
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