Price of steels, etc.

S

sledheavy

Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
15
I'm doing a report for college, my theory is that after dramatic occurences, such as 911, stockmarket crashes, or....................nuclear war, the knife industry will conform to ceramics. So I'm looking for anyone who might argue for or against the statement.

From what I've found, whenever there is a flux in the market (which is pretty seasonal) the steel industry takes heavy blows.

Also, steels and ceramics are like the auto industry with the hybrid car, it would be in societies interest, but the companies would go bankrupt. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 
The comparison is specious.A regular car compared to a hybrid is not the same as steel compared to ceramics.Both cars preform the same function and have the same abilities.The only comparison between steel and ceramic is hardness and sharpness.A ceramic cutter will not perform many,perhaps most ,of the same functions of a steel blade.While a ceramic knife is harder than steel,and can theoretically be made sharper,it is many times more brittle than steel.Durability is the prime reason ceramic knives are relegated to yuppie kitchens,and novelty gifts.Believe me ,if it was superior to steel the manufacturing industry would make most all cutting surfaces from ceramic.Cost would be another factor.While ceramics don't require exotic materials usually,neither does steel.Manufacture of steel is simpler than ceramic,especially when the vast quantities of production are considered.Finishing and shaping of ceramics is far more time and energy consuming.
The real reason steel will never be replaced by ceramics is the when you try to forge ceramic it just don't work well.And,what would ceramic damascus look like?
Stacy
 
Lets see I’ll take a shot, ceramic is too delicate (improved, but still not ideal as I understand) for some cutlery applications like say a field or combat knives, cleavers or even a knife that will hitting bone and for the most part the end user can not do much maintenance for themselves.

For the small knife maker there are limited techniques, I doubt you will soon see a ceramic blade with a hamon, no damascus, etc. and more difficult, expensive and I assume hazardous working processes. I think most ceramic material is sintered to shape, something that is beyond a small company let alone the backyard knifemaker. That also means limited design possibility, i.e. molds must be designed and made as opposed to just making something on a whim or designing on the fly.

As for economic crashes and 911 type events I think those will both push us further from using ceramic materials for expense and perceived security issues. You mention hybrid vehicles they and ceramic for cutting implements will, as technology improves and prices come down will find a bigger niche in the market, but I think it will be just that a niche for a very long time yet. There have been ceramic kitchen knives around for several years, I don’t know the figures but I would be surprised if they had a couple of percent of kitchen knife sales.

I’d also wonder about your reasoning about this,
"From what I've found, whenever there is a flux in the market (which is pretty seasonal) the steel industry takes heavy blows. ” Most industries that I can think of that use steel are not seasonal and have a pretty inelastic demand, and there is a lot export demand for scrap.

Todd
 
Sounds like you really need to research the difference between steel and ceramic. If you replaced steel blades with ceramic blades in all the knives out there, right now, a significant majority of knives would not be able to function. As has been mentioned, the fragility and difficulty of maintenance prevent ceramic from being useful for more than a few specialized tasks.
 
The biggest thing in the steel indutry is the fact that China is buying 25% of the worlds steel !!! That's an enormous effect.
 
Actually Kyocera offers a damascus line, how they came up with that I have no idea. I've spent the last week going as far back as 2001 in AMM (american metal market) to dif. between scraps and rates. It is true though, the market does flux, especially with alloys (big whoop).

As for comparing it to the car market. Keyword.......MARKET, I'm going to stick to my orig. statement, because ultimately, it's all about the consumer. And the yuppies just love gobblin' that s**** up.

And although one might consider that ceramics cannot perform today's remedial tasks, who is to say that a more evolved ceramic couldn't? We'll just have to wait and see. Big props to Mete though, I need to look into that.

Thank you all for your help, I now am developing a more sufficient report........probably till 5 tommarrow morning infact. I just hope that in the future there won't be a ceramicforums.com, and you guys won't be out of the job.

Thanks again. peace.
 
I think CerMet's (ceramic metal composites) have a bigger future and will be adopted by the public faster than ceramic knives. CerMet's have been developing at an incredible rate.

mete said:
The biggest thing in the steel indutry is the fact that China is buying 25% of the worlds steel!!!
Click to expand...
Mete, is correct. However, China is buying more than steel. The are buying all the metals they can get. They are also buying alloying elements. The result is metal shortages and increased prices with no end in sight.
 
You've still missed the main problem with your argument.You are placing marketing and consumerism as the main driving force of technology.For cars and clothes that may be true.For steel it is industry and construction.Very little (probably an incalculably small percentage) of the steel output is used for knife blades.Basically the argument is based on a prefix like," I switched to drinking Coke from Pepsi,therefore Pepsi is going bankrupt.". A second point I didn't expound on in my response was that production of ceramic items would be limited to a fairly small and basic shape.Steel is stamped and cast into cars,motor blocks,and bridge girders.It would take a new type of physics,not just a new technology to replace 99.9% of the uses of steel with ceramics.Also the market forces that drive steel pricing up and down would still apply to ceramics. Perhaps more ,due to the higher energy costs and consumption.
Stacy
 
ROFLMHO. I just was thinking of a car wreck involving two Pottery bodied cars.


Oh the shards ! :eek: :eek: :p
 
all those factors,,,plus, steel is a small percentage of the value of a knife. make one and keep track of your time on it and you'll see labor is most of the cost of a knife. for production knves it would be design and tooling i suppose.
 
There is steel, there are ceramics, and there are ferroceramics. Ferro-nitride is technically a ceramic. I've been experimenting with nitriding steel and then carbonizing and forging into Damascus, technically a fero-ceramic composite. The advantages for this material are technically based, not commercially based. If it is stronger, harder and higher preformance then it makes a better knife, and it is not competing with steel or ceramic. Hitachi Blue, INFI steel and S30V all have some ferro-nitride component. These steels are blurring the definition between steel and ferro-ceramics...Ed
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top