price of stones.

[Ben Dover]

My father always taught me that you get what you pay for, and there is no such thing as "free." If you want fresh, clean oats you will have to pay the farmer a fair price. If you're willing to settle for oats that have made a trip through the horse, you can get a real bargain.

There are several threads going where numerous posters are postulating "my $5 K-Mart "Blue Light Special" stone is a-gonna give ya just as good a' service as one of them dadburn $75 Jap jobs."

I use Shapton and Naniwa stones mostly. A few Atomas as well. All Japanese. (Even American DMTs once in a while)

I've used Arkansas stones, Nortons, Carborundums, etc.

Can you sharpen a knife with a cheap stone? Of course. You can sharpen a blade with a rock from the creek!

OTOH, quality is a different story. A little Hyundai that you need a large shoe horn to get into, will take you to work. But it's not a comfortable, high quality, easy to drive car with the latest safety and convenience features.

If you pay for a Hyundai, you'll get a Hyundai. If you want a Buick or Mercury, you'll have to pay a fair price for it.

I'd like to have new sharpeners start out with quality stones that will allow them to learn quickly, and enjoy the hobby enough to get really involved. If, after they develop some skill, they want to try sharpening with a rock, more power to them. But if they start out that way, they may lose interest quickly.

 

[HeavyHanded]

There are plenty of reasonable quality SiC stones available from ACE, Home Depot etc, or can be ordered online for very little money and a whole lot of sharpening utility. There is no shortage of professional sharpeners that regularly employ Norton Crystalon and/or India stones depending on the job. Understand what one is doing, develop the skill, challenge oneself to the point where one will actually see a difference in use between a more expensive option and a cheaper one, and then decide if you'd rather have a new, high quality knife, or more stones. Expensive stones don't make learning freehand sharpening any easier.

I have a bin filled with Arkies, diamond plates, waterstones, etc, all purchased in pursuit of an edge I can get from much cheaper means. All of my current most-used methods are extremely cost effective, less than 50.00 total shipped to my door where unavailable locally. I can get plenty strong results using my India stone, Crystalon stone, jointer stones, or sandpaper and writing paper over my Washboard. Aside from not being American made, if the Hyundai does what the Mercury does for less, why not buy it and take a vacation/remodel your kitchen/buy new bicycles for the kids etc etc etc with the difference?

People shouldn't think for one second they cannot get very strong results without tossing a large sum of money.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Over a span of 20+ years, I've spent a ton of money on diamond plates, guided systems, ceramic rods, etc. Each has taught me something, but in retrospect, I find myself wishing I'd tried wet/dry sandpaper and picked up a silicon carbide and/or India stone years or even decades ago. I'm finding now, that if I had tried those earlier and learned with them, I likely wouldn't have spent nearly so much on everything else. In terms of the 'quality' of the edges I produce now, I'm actually doing the best with the wet/dry paper and other simple materials, like SiC and green compound for stropping, on leather, wood, and paper. These are what I use likely >95% of the time, and most of the pricier sharpening gear I've collected only gets picked up occasionally. The diamond plates have been useful for fast re-bevelling, but all of the refinenment tasks are getting done for cheap.

I am a huge believer in finding a quality source of instruction, to learn the art, wherever that may be found (I found it here on the forums :thumbup. Some folks are lucky, in having a father/grandfather or other good family friend teach them, from very early in life. If the instruction is good, the (perceived) necessity for expensive gear diminishes in a huge way. Learning how to get the most out of whatever you currently have is the most important thing, so far as I'm concerned. A lot of that comes down to being patient and keeping an open mind, always. It's too easy to 'try' something for a few minutes and then write it off forever. So, I'm in the habit of going back once in a while, and revisiting some of the old (and presumed 'inferior') tools I might've given up on a while back. It's amazing how much the 'quality' of those tools has improved over a few years' time.

I will concede that trying all of the diamond, SiC, AlOx and natural stones and other abrasives has taught me a TON about how each abrasive type is better-suited (or not) to different steel types. In that respect, all the money spent has been very fruitful for me. It's much easier now, to pick & choose a particular stone or stropping abrasive that'll be 'just right and just enough' for the needs of a particular blade of particular steel in my hand, at a particular moment.


David

 

[sir_mike]

Is there any difference in the Norton Crystolon vs the Norton India? Which one is better/recommended?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Is there any difference in the Norton Crystolon vs the Norton India? Which one is better/recommended?

Both are Norton products, and trademarked under those names. The Crystolon is silicon carbide abrasive, the India is aluminum oxide. Crystolon is the more aggressive stone, useful especially for coarse & heavy grinding. The India has a good rep for additional refinement beyond that, and many here like it as their go-to maintenance and upkeep stone.


David

 

[emjay]

You definitely get what you pay for, and generally the more something costs the better it will do a job and it will do that job better for longer

I use a lansky guided system on my decent quality knives, just because a decent quality knife should have a decent quality sharpener. You don't put cheap tyres on a Porsche. Quality with quality. However, I do own a couple of cheap AlOx oilstones and actually use them more than my lansky set, because I tend to carry and use lower quality knives more, because I don't want to wear out my better quality knives too fast, nor my lansky set. That's just how I am. My freehand sharpening skills are good and I can get a hair popping scary sharp edge on just about any straight bladed knife with my AlOx stones that cost no more than the equivalent of $5 and my simple leather belt. I have a broken coffee cup reserved for keeping an edge on some of my cheaper recurved knives. A person without some skill in sharpening won't get a shaving edge no matter how expensive the stone was, but with practice, you can get a scary sharp edge with almost anything suitable.

But if you want an expensive quality stone, why shouldn't you be allowed to have one? I'll one day get myself higher quality knives and match an even better guided sharpening system with them, but for now my cheap knives and even cheaper oilstones serve their purpose just fine

Rather learn first on a cheap stone. I did, and still have the same stone after years of service. I'd rather practice on a cheap stone with a cheap blade and move on from there. If the rookie sharpener messes up the blade or stone, no big deal, no big money lost but a lot of valuable things learnt

 

[fervens]

I'm a little confused by your definition of quality. Is it purely based on price? I agree that you pay for what you get, but sometimes a +300 dollar stone is still just a rock. Soft arkansas stones are excellent for the price so don't think for a second they are cheap. Shaving sharp with no problem with consistent scratch pattern and near mirror finish with no dishing after 5 years. And a $20 Norton India stone is going to last a hell of a lot longer than most water stones and still cut as fast. I find quality as far as sharpening stones go to be more trial and error/brand controlled rather than price. The materials for sharpening stones are honestly pretty cheap. Silicon Carbide, Aluminum Oxide, Chromium Oxide, Diamonds, Cubic Boron Nitride, magnesium, clay, thermo-set resin. Every stick to the same basic materials for the most part. Barring "secret" that I'm trying to figure out. Even with good quality control. It's the maker's formulas that do it. Controlling binder breakdown, binder to abrasive ratio, grit control, porosity/density, hard/soft consistency with in a single stone. Natural stone prices are controlled more by supply than demand really. Most of them are just becoming scarce. I have seen "cheap" stones where they are almost nothing but binder and vice-versa, but i have found quality stones at the same price range at the store around the corner. And systems still rely on how detailed the user is. That human factor will never go away.

To sum it up, gold is also just a rock from the creek and i'm not going to let my 16 year old brother drive a brand new Porsche. Hair popping sharp is hair popping sharp.

 

[Jason B.]

India stone cut as fast as a waterstone? Not in this lifetime I'm afraid. Don't get me wrong a Norton India works well but its not that fast.

As a professional sharpener I put a high demand on my stones, the stones of choice at work are the Naniwa chosera stones and they do the job far better than a more standard stone can. I also use Nubatama stones which are by far some of the fastest cutting stones I have ever used, blowing away my DMT stones on all but the most wear resistant metals.

For me stones are the tools of my trade and a very important part of what I do daily so the thought of purchasing a $300 Ozuku or a $800 Nakayama Maruka is not just buying another rock its making a investment so I can apply a better edge to fine cutlery. The everyday sharpener does not need these type of tool but never moving past a hardware store aluminum oxide stone will never let you fully enjoy what a edge is capable of.

 

[neeman]

Surely it depends....

Someone needs to spend $800 on a Nakayama Maruka as a professional solution
Someone else need to spend $2 on a ceramic stone for the once a year sharpening
The gap depends on many factors
What do you need to sharpen, what stones will do this well enough, and do you know how to use the sharpening tools

For me the lack of knowladge of what stones do what, and at what price, is a major limitation to make the choice of what stones to use

I belong to a Watercolor forum
We have tutorial threads dedicated by senior members to discribe brushes, paper and paint
So what so when a neubie asks the same tired question we can send them to the turorial thread

We have some very good threads that could be included into a tutorial sticky with the links
And do not have on other topics
As an example, we do not have a good explanation of the range of waterstones
I want to know what waterstone to use to grind back a scandi
So an answer would be see this link in the Tutorial sticky

Up above there is a list of different stones
So make a thread on each stone explaining what is does

What I am asking is the knowladgable folk here invest in an organised way to make a knowladge source, Turorial Sticky, FAQs that can be used and reused

Any ideas?

 

[Jason B.]

It's just not that easy. Stones are individual, complex, and above all hard to explain. Videos can be made to show a glimpse of how they work but what works "best" with a given steel or knife is a challenging question to even some of the most experienced stone users.

Even a seemingly simple question like "what stone to grind back a scandi" could have hundreds of answers.

 

[neeman]

Jason,

Yes I know............
As a Technical Writer in a Hi-Tech company writing hardware documentation, I am aware of the complexity of simple questions

But there are general rules
Stone X cuts very fast but wears very quickly, and if you want the stone to be flat then you have to dress it after each use, but it is less expensive
Stone Y cuts very fast and does not wear quickly but is very expensive

If a waterstone is not flat this causes .....?

 

[HeavyHanded]

It's just not that easy. Stones are individual, complex, and above all hard to explain. Videos can be made to show a glimpse of how they work but what works "best" with a given steel or knife is a challenging question to even some of the most experienced stone users.

Even a seemingly simple question like "what stone to grind back a scandi" could have hundreds of answers.

^ This is why I recommend something simple to start. Not everyone is intent on passing a hanging hair test with a pocket or belt knife on any steel they come across, and even fewer will go on to get paid for their services. The simple tools give simple results but no less effective for the vast majority of everyday usage. I would never tell someone not to bother with higher end means should they wish, but when starting out simple is better.

 

[Skimo]

Yep, knife sharpening is 'art' everything from non toxic water paint to 'advanced arty art' with blood and excrement.

Stick figures to whatever master painters work... And people pay for Picassos!?

Blades and edges are just as subjective, some guys think a factory edge after three months if daily use is sharp, I stand by the maxim that a 120 grit edge can be just as useful as a freshly honed straight razor. There is a purpose for every edge.

So, start with what works for you, refine your ability until you feel that you want/need better tools for your work, the subtleties of edges are like the subtleties you find in other crafts.

 

[Ben Dover]

If your interest is high tech steel knives that you can take to the field for a week or two without needing to sharpen in the field, then you will appreciate Japanese stones.

If you don't mind re-sharpening your hunting knife after every deer, then you can get by with less expensive equipment.

I suppose if I was satisfied with knives of 1095, 420HC, AUS, 154CM etc, an India stone would serve me well.

For my high end Spydercos, Doziers, Striders, ZTs, Etc I want the best sharpening equipment I can get to assure a mirror polished, straight razor edge.

And if a new knife enthusiast buys a quality knife of CPM M-4, S90V, M390, Elmax, ETC, he's probably not going to be too happy with the sharpen/polish job he gets from crystalon.

All of my knives, except the old ones in the "beater/loaner" box are high tech, modern steel. They all have a mirror polish, and they all will shave my face. (actually, the ones in the beater box have the same edge) One takes a certain pride in craftsmanship.

 

[HeavyHanded]

If your interest is high tech steel knives that you can take to the field for a week or two without needing to sharpen in the field, then you will appreciate Japanese stones.

That's good, the JWS don't travel well in a backpack and are a real bad idea if the temps are expected to drop below freezing.

And if a new knife enthusiast buys a quality knife of CPM M-4, S90V, M390, Elmax, ETC, he's probably not going to be too happy with the sharpen/polish job he gets from crystalon.

All of my knives, except the old ones in the "beater/loaner" box are high tech, modern steel. They all have a mirror polish, and they all will shave my face. (actually, the ones in the beater box have the same edge) One takes a certain pride in craftsmanship.

If that new knife enthusiast buys one from Phil Wilson (among others), that's exactly the edge he'll get, and probably be very happy. And not need to touch it up after every use either.

A mirror polish isn't needed to shave a face or even whittle a hair. If one is interested in shaving, I don't think you'll find too many straight razors with high vanadium content anyway (though some can be custom made IIRC).


The conversation was really what's a good idea for a beginner, someone that has no idea how far their interest will go. A combination SiC stone is never useless, possibly the single most versatile sharpening tool one can possess.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

My stones strops are:
3$ Daisho - 320 and 400 grit
12$ Ace Hardware 400/10000 grit (similar to Taedea stones from China)
X$ (forgot, something like 0.8$) natural local sediment stone for woodworking.
15$ unknown grit sushi knife waterstones from Sogo dept store (reddish brown dish fast but cut fast)
3 DMT cards (C, F, EF)
1000 & 1500 grit sandpaper
Washboard + Flexcut gold (Thanks HH!)
Balance strop + white compound (Thanks Bluntcut!)
Autosol, MAAS polish.

And for now I'm quite happy
(Blades: 8Cr, 9Cr, SAK, AUS 8)

 

[Magnaminous_G]

A sharpener is not going to be pleased with the result of a Crystalon only if his technique is not up to par and if he has no idea what kind of edge a Crystalon stone puts on the particular knife he is sharpening. In other words, his problem will be his ignorance and lack of experience, not the stone. But does that mean you shouldn't start with Choseras? Not necessarily. If you want to do that, then go for it.

It's like this: wearing Air Jordans doesn't make you a better basketball player. That said, it certainly doesn't hurt. Like many here, I recommend starting with a Norton combo India stone. Sharpening is sharpening. Anything that is harder than the steel you are sharpening will sharpen. Is it the greatest stone in the world and ideal for all steels? Not at all. BUT it will take quite a while, a lot of sharpening, and a lot of learning to appreciate the vagaries of different stones. Personally, I started with some of my most expensive stones: DMT 10" Duo-Sharps. In retrospect, I should have just started with a Norton combo India stone. I still use both!

Again, if you can afford it and want to start with expensive stones like Choseras, DMT Duo-Sharps, Shaptons, Nubatamas, etc., then go for it! Why not? You're still sharpening. But you won't be able to appreciate those stones until you've sharpened a LOT of knives with a lot of different stones. Just like learning how to drive with a Nissan GTR is just fine if that's what you want to do... but the problem is that you won't in any way appreciate that masterpiece of a machine you are driving until you've driven a lot of cars under a lot of conditions and actually know *why* it is a superior machine.

 

[willbro]

Interesting points. I would tend to agree with camp that if a new person is successful with early sharpening attempts then that's the best scenario. There are a lot of factors that come into play like they kinds of knives they have.

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Personally I find the concept of "you get what you pay for" to be inaccurate, silly and overstated. In its most basic sense it's true, of course, but the idea that by paying more you receive more is just flat out wrong.

The idea that a beginner sharpener should go invest in high dollar stones seems similarly ludicrous. Many people that buy nice knives have no problem with sending their blades in to be re sharpened by the OEM, or send it to someone like Richard J for his services. A person like that following bad advice is likely to end up with a pile of expensive stones that they resent because they can't get good results using them.

I DO believe in having tools that work well, but more than once I've errantly spent big (sometimes very big) money because I believed that equipment would make me better at whatever it was I was doing.

To dismiss a whole class of stones simply based on their cost is a mistake imo.

 

[Ben Dover]

To each his own. I know what works well for me. And I know what will give me the type of super refined, highly polished edge I like. With virtually no "toothiness.":thumbup: