Problems with Shadetree burlap swelling?

DavidCAndersen

DavidCAndersen

Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
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Hi all and Andy in particular,

Looking for some info to see if anyone can shed some light on this...

I have a knife I am testing from another maker right now using Shadetree burlap for the handle scales. He has just started experimenting with the material and one thing I noticed is that his handle pins are the slightest bit proud of the material. Not enough to see with the nekkid eye, but just enough to catch a fingernail.

I spoke with the maker and he said he has noticed that pretty much all the knives he has finished using the burlap micarta have the pins slightly proud after finishing. He says...

"I do not know yet if the scales are shrinking due to the winter weather or if it some other reason. I am hesitant to sand them flush again because I do not want the pins to be recessed in the spring/summer if the micarta swells back up when the seasons change again. I do have a couple "test" knives here that I am monitoring for those exact changes."

Can anyone help out? Has anyone noticed any swellings/shrinking with the seasons? Andy, have you noticed any differences in working with burlap vs more pedestrian micartas?
 
I am very interested to see the input to this thread.

Thanks for posting/asking.

Todd
 
I have not noticed any shrinkage or swells in the resin nor do any of my Shadetree handles have proud pins.

However, one time I unintentionally left some water on the handle of my Camp Nessie after cutting up some veggies. Afterwards, I noticed that the actual fabric material had swelled a bit leaving the surface of the handle more rough or grippy. The only explanation I can think of is that the exposed fabric absorbed a bit of the moisture. I actually don't mind it tho, it seems more "grippy" now.
 
I tried making my own micarta once when I bought a blank fallkniven blade. I did notice some shrinkage. I did some research and i was told that i didn't put enough resin. I've never tried making another one eversince.
 
I have a bushfinger in maroon hounds tooth from shade tree. zero problems with it, and I have traveled back and forth between portland, OR and phoenix AZ twice with it.
 
My runt got sweaty during monsoons and I also noticed some of the fibers swelled. I sanded them back flush and have managed to keep it dry since then. I'll be interested to hear others experiences!
 
It is common in other scale materials. Even epoxy can shift with temperature and humidity extremes, depending on the product. I have found it to be self-limiting for the most part. Let us know how it progresses.
 
Hi David,

I have owned fifty or more knives with Shadetree burlap handles. I am a big fan of their products.

I think what you are referring to in your question is shrinkage rather than expansion. I'll break down my experience into four categories to answer your question.

1) I have never had a Shadetree handle shrink length-wise or height-wise away from the handle tang on any knife.

2) I have not had any problems with proud pins on any Fiddleback knives where the handles were attached with natural micarta or black carbon fiber pins.

3) I have experienced some cases of slightly proud mosaic pins and/or around the metal bullseye tube over time on Fiddleback knives that I have had for a while due to thickness shrinkage in the burlap. This is more common around mosaic pins in the thicker palm swell section of the handle as opposed to rarer cases around the bulleye tube in the thinner section of the handle.

4) I have tried two Bark River made knives with Shadetree burlap handles and metal pins and tubes. Both of them had extremely sharp proud pins when I received the knives new from the dealers. I mean visibly proud and sharp edges on the pins. I was shocked that they passed final QC inspection that way. The first knife had other quality issues besides that, so I returned to the dealer for an exchange. The second knife was an American Knife Company “Forest” knife that was made by Bark River for them. I sent that one back with a note explaining that it had proud pins. They “reworked” it and returned it to me. The result was that the knife still had proud sharp pins, but not as obscenely high as before. I gave up and sold that one.

Here are my suspicions about what may be going on to cause the proud pin situation around metal pins and/or tubes. In the case of Bark River, they put a highly polished finish on their handles with high RPM buffers. That can generate significant heat which may cause the burlap to swell while the operator is actually polishing the handle and later shrink while it cools on the finished table. The other more likely possibility to me is that the fibers of the buffing wheel separate to go around the harder metal pin while removing more of the softer burlap material. Think of water in a stream going around a rock to picture what I am talking about. In either of these scenarios, the result is sharp proud pins. Fiddleback knives don’t suffer with either of these issues because they are finished by hand sanding with a firm backer behind the paper to produce an even smooth finish. My belief is that the slightly proud mosaic pins I have experienced on a few Fiddlebacks are the result of a tiny bit of thickness shrinkage in the burlap material itself because this condition developed over time.

The bottom line for me is that I will continue to buy knives made with Shadetree burlap handles because I love the stuff. The only caveat is that I will probably not buy any more that are attached with metal or mosaic pins. That means that Bark River is out for me when it comes to burlap handles because they only use metal or mosaic pins to attach their handles. I prefer the look and feel of micarta or carbon fiber pins anyway, regardless of wood or synthetic handle material.

I hope this feedback helps.

Phil
 
I have more Shadetree burlap handled knives that I'd like to tell. Their product is superior to most any on the market. Stable. Strong. Tough. Resilient. I have Fiddlebacks with 4+ year old shadetree, everything is A-OK on each and every knife! If you have some proud pins, I would assume it's from over-sanding where the scale material is softer than the end grain or metal pins! A sanding block virtually eliminates this. It's an easy fix for you or the knifemaker! One of my current Fiddlebacks is burlap micarta and has been at all types of altitudes in all sorts of weather and temperature, those scales are wonderful! I love Shadetree burlap after it gets some worldly wear! My, it's grippy stuff!

-Will
 
I haven't had any problems. I did notice the handle gets grippier when wet, which is a good thing.:thumbup:;)
 
Pretty much what Gus said for me. Over the last year, just about daily, a burlap handled knife has been on my belt or a pocket in the northeastern US climate. Though you all have me curious now and I will be taking a closer look at my knives, especially around the tubes and the couple of mosaics. I've never noticed any of the pins being proud.
 
I have seen this from some makers regardless of handle material, and then no proud pins from others. Mostly it seems it is the metal pins that do this. In some discussions with friends who make knives we were wondering if maybe it had more to do with the handle finishing process, the materials heating up during it, and then the handle materials and pins having different expansion and contraction characteristics, and settling back to slightly different heights. Hand finishing nore slowly with less heat seems to produce fewer proud pins.
 
I think my esquire is experiencing what you are talking about. All of the pins feel a bit proud. Some more than others. You can kind of see it in the following picture.



However you can really see it around the bullseye.



I really don't give it much thought since I love this little guy and carry it everyday and everywhere with me. And I mean everywhere.

 
One of my favorite aspects of the Shadetree burlaps is the exposure of fibers on the surface over time. Honesty, I handle mine all the time trying to encourage the process. I never even considered moisture aiding in the process until this thread. I reckon it makes sense. I've used my shadetree Kephart in the kitchen many times and the scales have considerably more texture now than when I purchased it. I much prefer the scales with this texture as opposed to freshly finished.

On the other hand I have several Fiddlebacks with pins proud enough to grab a fingernail. They were this way from day one and have not gotten noticeably better or worse. As far as I can tell they have not changed. None of these were purchased straight from the Forge, but they were all like new. During use these proud pins are not noticeable...and I have no qualms with them. In fact I just tell myself they provide added "texture" and if I didn't own Fiddleback's with flush pins I probably never would have noticed... I do have several with proud lanyard tubes...unlike the proud pins the proud tubes are noticeable both in-use and visually. They do not cause discomfort, but I definitely notice the lanyard tube more so than the proud-ish pins. With that said I am still incredibly pleased with my Fiddlebacks and plan on using them for as long as I am able. They are the nicest knives I have ever carried!
 
tbhride said:
Hi all and Andy in particular,

Looking for some info to see if anyone can shed some light on this...

I have a knife I am testing from another maker right now using Shadetree burlap for the handle scales. He has just started experimenting with the material and one thing I noticed is that his handle pins are the slightest bit proud of the material. Not enough to see with the nekkid eye, but just enough to catch a fingernail.

I spoke with the maker and he said he has noticed that pretty much all the knives he has finished using the burlap micarta have the pins slightly proud after finishing. He says...

"I do not know yet if the scales are shrinking due to the winter weather or if it some other reason. I am hesitant to sand them flush again because I do not want the pins to be recessed in the spring/summer if the micarta swells back up when the seasons change again. I do have a couple "test" knives here that I am monitoring for those exact changes."

Can anyone help out? Has anyone noticed any swellings/shrinking with the seasons? Andy, have you noticed any differences in working with burlap vs more pedestrian micartas?
Click to expand...

We occasionally see this problem. We see it in wood mostly. Sometimes we see it in the burlaps. When I went to that show in Vegas I even saw it in canvas micarta and g10. Matter moves with heat and moisture. In each of these phenolics the fibers on the surface absorb and loose some water, even if its only capillary action between the fibers. It happens more for us in the winter, which makes sense.

To fix this we re-surface the pins to the level of the handle material with a GRINDER!!! This means there is a hard backer behind the belt. Hand sanding this problem out would be a bad idea IMO. You're going to remove the handle material much faster than the pin and will quickly exaggerate the problem. Once we've got the extra material carefully removed, we re-sand the handle. 90% of the time we never see the problem with that handle again. (With burlaps. Woods never stop moving even if they are stabilized!!!!)





fod said:
I am very interested to see the input to this thread.

Thanks for posting/asking.

Todd
Click to expand...

I haven't seen any uptick Todd. If I did I'd have called you.

TripleT said:
It is common in other scale materials. Even epoxy can shift with temperature and humidity extremes, depending on the product. I have found it to be self-limiting for the most part. Let us know how it progresses.
Click to expand...

You got the physics nailed bro.

Archaeo72 said:
One of my favorite aspects of the Shadetree burlaps is the exposure of fibers on the surface over time. Honesty, I handle mine all the time trying to encourage the process. I never even considered moisture aiding in the process until this thread. I reckon it makes sense. I've used my shadetree Kephart in the kitchen many times and the scales have considerably more texture now than when I purchased it. I much prefer the scales with this texture as opposed to freshly finished.

On the other hand I have several Fiddlebacks with pins proud enough to grab a fingernail. They were this way from day one and have not gotten noticeably better or worse. As far as I can tell they have not changed. None of these were purchased straight from the Forge, but they were all like new. During use these proud pins are not noticeable...and I have no qualms with them. In fact I just tell myself they provide added "texture" and if I didn't own Fiddleback's with flush pins I probably never would have noticed... I do have several with proud lanyard tubes...unlike the proud pins the proud tubes are noticeable both in-use and visually. They do not cause discomfort, but I definitely notice the lanyard tube more so than the proud-ish pins. With that said I am still incredibly pleased with my Fiddlebacks and plan on using them for as long as I am able. They are the nicest knives I have ever carried!
Click to expand...

It is important to realize how good a handle material that burlap from Shadetree actually is. The positives FAR outweigh any negatives common to all physical matter. Shadetree burlap is lightweight, sometimes even lighter than wood. It is MUCH more stable than stabilized wood. What I'm saying is that we almost NEVER fix scale seperation with G-10, commercial Micarta, or Shadetree Burlap micarta. And the coup de gras, which is mentioned in the post above is that the free fibers on the surface of Shadetree Burlap micartas give a grippiness that is out of this world compared to other phenolics. When wet, this material is still easy to grip, whereas with other phenolics, it is easy to get them very slick. Especially if one uses the dreaded buffer in their finishing process. The worst of the slippery materials is the stabilized woods, then g10, then micarta then Shadetree. Its really exceptional material.

Now, if you ever have a problem with your pins getting proud on Fiddleback handles, please send your knife in to us. We will re-surface the pins, and re-sand the handle. Because of how accurate I can be with the wheel it takes very little sanding and is a 5 minute fix. No charge for this other than your shipping costs.
 
Thank you all for your input on this little fact finding mission! I'll be sending this thread to the maker. I know he will appreciate it. Figured there might be some quirks with the material.

I'm really liking the material, and as I said the pins were only the slightest bit proud, not enough to affect in hand comfort.

On an unrelated topic, Andy I sent you an email about a week ago. Was wondering if you got it?
 
Hey David, we just checked and don't have one from anytime in Feb. Can you re-send?
 
I'd be honored to take part David. I'll answer these this weekend and get Phillip to gather some pics.
 
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