Production Heat Treat Question

rodriguez7

rodriguez7

Gila wilderness knife works
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
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How in depth and reliable are some of the production heat treats? Such as Zero Tolerance, what kind of heat treat can I expect out of them? Consistant enough to avoid major failures in the field? I know some mistakes happen, even with busse, who supposedly have very good quality control with their heat treats. Im not expecting cryo or anything, just hoping for quality. Thanks.
 
The heat treat on anything less than a $1500 custom will cause the blade to explode the instant it comes in contact with the atmosphere or any type of humidity.
 
marcinek said:
The heat treat on anything less than a $1500 custom will cause the blade to explode the instant it comes in contact with the atmosphere or any type of humidity.
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I have read plenty of your posts here, been around a long time. I really didnt expect such a smart a$$ comment from someone like you. I figured my question was somewhat valid, but I guess not, thanks for nothing man. Im just trying to find out more about z.t. I really like their blades, and want to know how constistant their heat treat is.
 
rodriguez7 said:
I have read plenty of your posts here, been around a long time. I really didnt expect such a smart a$$ comment from someone like you. I figured my question was somewhat valid, but I guess not, thanks for nothing man. Im just trying to find out more about z.t. I really like their blades, and want to know how constistant their heat treat is.
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Relax...

That's how Marcinek is, he's very upfront. But his sarcasm is correct, you're overthinking it...
 
Over thinking what? The most important thing in making a knife?
 
rodriguez7 said:
Over thinking what? The most important thing in making a knife?
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While you have a point, so do they. ZT has sold tens of thousands of knives, and other than an issue they had in the past with over-heating Elmax while grinding, they have had no issues with their heat treat, or you would have certainly heard about it.

ZT has a very effective heat treat on the steels they use, whether it is their 154cm, Elmax, M390, or S35VN. They are very consistant, and they have had no wide-spread issues (again, with the exception of the issue of over-heating Elmax). If a production company as large as ZT was using a mediocre heat-treat, there would be a lot of information on it in all likelyhood, and people wouldn't let it pass easily, like what happened with their Elmax. People figured out there was an issue rather quickly, and it was fairly common knowledge quickly.

I think this was the cause of some of the sarcasm...that and, to be honest, it was pretty funny, though I know you have a different opinion on that aspect of it.
 
Well dam, thanks for a decent answer. Thats all im looking for, im not here to try to stir up trouble. I just really got into zt's, I really like their knives, and just picked up an 0180 in vanadis 4e. Just trying to get some opinions.
 
I'll say this, my 110v SnG is hardened to 60. I believe it's pretty much accepted that the optimal hardness for that steel is 63-64. I think companies might leave a little on the table with the high carbide "super steels" because of how difficult it would be to mass produce knives at that level of hardness.
 
rodriguez7 said:
Well dam, thanks for a decent answer. Thats all im looking for, im not here to try to stir up trouble. I just really got into zt's, I really like their knives, and just picked up an 0180 in vanadis 4e. Just trying to get some opinions.
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That's an interesting steel, and to be honest, I have not had any experience with ZT's treatment of it.

Depending on what you treat the hardness to, it seems to have some slightly varrying properties, so I can uctually understand your question more in the case of this steel. I would assume (if I'm wrong someone please correct me) that they will probably be treating it to the range of 60-63rc, as this is the optimal range for 4V (again, could be different for Vanadis 4E), at which point it will have an excellent balance of toughness (only slightly outclssed by 3V at the same hardness), and superior edge retention and wear resistance to 3V, at the cost of much of the stain-resistance that 3V has, though the coating on the blade should more than make up for that.

Just what I could remember off the top fo my head. Again, if anyone sees something incorrect, or knows what the hardnees ZT uses is, please chime in.
 
Gavin S. said:
I'll say this, my 110v SnG is hardened to 60. I believe it's pretty much accepted that the optimal hardness for that steel is 63-64. I think companies might leave a little on the table with the high carbide "super steels" because of how difficult it would be to mass produce knives at that level of hardness.
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From what I know of the method Stider used on that treatment, they were trying to increase the toughness of the steel, while still getting better edge retention than other steels at the same hardness. You are mostly right at the accepted range of 63-64, but it also chips fairly easily at that hardness, so I often see soemthing closer to 60-62 for knife steel, to keep the edge from chipping as much, and to make the steel easier to maintain.

Not to say you're wrong. I think several companies run steel a little softer to make their equipment run better, but I'm just saying there might be some other considerations for why the steel is done that way as well. A good example of this in my opinion is Rockstead. They run ZDP-189 at insane hardness, but have to take extreme care in sharpening and treating the steel to ensure it is usable for everyday tasks and not too brittle. In addition, it takes hours and hours to countour and polish that edge and bevel by hand, and even machiens have a lot of trouble with it, resulting in a very high overall cost of prodcuction and final retail cost.

I don't have a lot of info on S110V though, and I am still trying to get more examples of it, so my info may be a little scewed to one method of treating the steel.
 
rodriguez7 said:
I've seen you weigh in with some knowledge on most.
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You sure they were my posts?

Really, ZT knives are wildly popular around here, you must know that. If they had a bad heat treat, they wouldn't be. Particularly with us knife geeks.
 
marcinek said:
You sure they were my posts?

Really, ZT knives are wildly popular around here, you must know that. If they had a bad heat treat, they wouldn't be. Particularly with us knife geeks.
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I think you have a valid point, as I've said above, but I think I can undertsand his reaction a little. Mainly because it was the first response, and it seemed to come by as a little dry compared to some other sarcasm on the forums (conveying sarcasm in type sucks), so he just took it the wrong way.

I'm not sayin you were in the wrong, nor that he was, but just that it seems like some miscomunication.

Side note: I really need to finish reading all of the responses before I start to respond msyelf, or I end up doing this. Sorry, didn't mean to have so many posts go up one after another :o
 
But seriously, most of the production knives are gong to have a decent heat treatment. With some, it will be done to a price point an perhaps left a bit soft like some of the 1095 you see out there. You may get what would be considered an optimum "industry standard" HT for the steel with more expensive stuff like ZT, but you will not get the crazy drill down to the deepest part of the core job that you get with some custom makers. With that said, I can tell you without telling you who that if you buy something like CPM90V from some of the production companies, you will get a BETTER HT than what you might get from some VERY pricy customs folder makers. Saw someone HT that stuff with no cryo at all and charge a LOT of money for it.
 
Industry standards ? Iremember a discussion about Sebenza that many thought it should be harder .Well it could have been harder but the company has to find what their average customer wants as far as a hardness/toughness compromise .I think also that companies prefer a little softer rather than harder chippier edge. If you want more than that find a custom maker who will HT your knife to you're precise hardnee.
 
You shouldn't worry. Like others have said, their blades are consistently well treated. If by some chance you get a bad one that chips or breaks because of it's heat treat they'd probably replace it. (assuming it's not a blem)

marcinek said:
The heat treat on anything less than a $1500 custom will cause the blade to explode the instant it comes in contact with the atmosphere or any type of humidity.
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Not funny man.

I still have scars.
 
mete said:
Industry standards ? Iremember a discussion about Sebenza that many thought it should be harder .Well it could have been harder but the company has to find what their average customer wants as far as a hardness/toughness compromise .I think also that companies prefer a little softer rather than harder chippier edge. If you want more than that find a custom maker who will HT your knife to you're precise hardnee.
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CRK for the most part believes in easier to sharpen for the customer and not having chippy edges. :)
 
The Elmax/ZT stories go back a long way. Unfortunately, the whistle-blowers sometimes get skewered and discarded in the process.
 
I'll say this, my 110v SnG is hardened to 60. I believe it's pretty much accepted that the optimal hardness for that steel is 63-64. I think companies might leave a little on the table with the high carbide "super steels" because of how difficult it would be to mass produce knives at that level of hardness.
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Gavin, optimal hardness wouldn't be that high for a knife expecting much harder use than a Phil Wilson skinning knife. Different heat treats, different geometries for different expected uses. There is really no "optimal" unless you are being extremely specific in uses. Much more specific than in a hard use knife like the SNG can see. Anything from opening letters to prying.

joe
 
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